A Good Musketeer's Rapier, Probably Saxony, ca. 1600

Multumesc · 25th July 2012, 04:18 PM

Very beautiful sword!!

VANDOO · 26th July 2012, 05:49 PM

A VERY NICE OLD SWORD, AND ITS GOOD TO SEE A PICTURE OF THE FULLY EQUIPED MUSKETEER ALONG WITH IT. THAT SHOWS HOW MUCH EQUIPMENT WAS CARRIED AS WELL AS THE SKILL AND PRACTICE REQUIRED TO USE IT ALL EFFECTIVELY.

Matchlock · 27th July 2012, 09:23 PM

Absolutely, Barry,

And it would most probably have doubled its price just a couple of years ago ...

Items like that preserved in virtually untouched condition for hundreds of years are logically getting fewer and fewer each day due to crude overcleaning - SO PLEASE DO LEAVE YOUR ARMS THE WAY THEY ARE!

Remember:
you can always take something off old surfaces but you can never add a patina 'both convincing and real' ... at least for an experienced eye, that is.
I guess I repeated that many times on the forum anyway ...

Best,
Michael

Matchlock · 27th July 2012, 11:32 PM

Considering illustrative sources of period artwork, the very same type of rapier featuring a plum-shaped pommel and recurved quillons was part of a caliverman's equipment of c. 1600 as well - a colored engraving from Jacob de Gheyn's Wapenhandelinghe (1608) attached.

For more information on characteristic caliverman's equipment of ca. 1600 to early-17th c. please see
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...rman%27s+flask

m

Matchlock · 27th July 2012, 11:39 PM

Considering illustrative sources of period artwork, the very same type of rapier featuring a plum-shaped pommel was part of the equipment of a caliverman of c. 1600 as well - a colored engraving from Jacob de Gheyn's Wapenhandelinghe (1608) attached.

For more information on characteristic caliverman's equipment of ca. 1600 to early-17th c. please see
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...rman%27s+flask

m

Jim McDougall · 30th July 2012, 04:44 PM

Thank you Michael! Great pics and information.
Totally with you on your well placed note on 'leaving the patination alone!'!!!
So many wonderful weapons have been historically euthanized by such unfortunate zeal of arms gatherers (not collectors) who have no sense of historical importance and simply use them to impress or to sell.
The patina is actually history incarnate, and was preciously earned in the aging of the weapon.
It is interesting to know more on the use of the rapier in a military sense as well, since it is commonly misperceived that these were only civilian weapons.

Dmitry · 30th July 2012, 07:56 PM

What makes it a musketeer's rapier, as opposed to a non-musketeer's rapier?

Matchlock · 31st July 2012, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitry

What makes it a musketeer's rapier, as opposed to a non-musketeer's rapier?

Hi Dmitry,

The only differentiation I know is that the shorter rapiers belonged to foot soldiers (calivermen and musketeers) while the longer ones were employed by calvarymen.

Best,
Michael

Chris Evans · 31st July 2012, 12:32 AM

Jim,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

It is interesting to know more on the use of the rapier in a military sense as well, since it is commonly misperceived that these were only civilian weapons.

This is a can of worms, but a lot of confusion arises out of calling rapiers any sword with a complex hilt. A lot of renaissance era military swords with heavy curt&thrust blades and completely unsuited to fencing were fitted with complex hilts and in paintings are easily confused with the much more slender bladed and elegant rapier. The much later Spanish 1796 pattern sword, fitted with a cup hilt is probably one of the best examples of this - The English, during the Napoleonic era confused them with rapiers, yet it was a cavalry weapon!

Just what exactly is a rapier is very contentious, but I for one, subscribe to the English Elizabethan use of the word, as on the continent the term had other connotations, that of a sword used in the Spanish/Italian style of fencing with the point and either unable to dispense cuts, or poorly suited for this purpose.

No doubt, a few made it to the battlefields, but generally it was unsuited to warfare, as biliously asserted by that old grump, Geroge Silver.

Cheers
Chris

A Senefelder · 31st July 2012, 01:44 AM

At 96 cm ( a fraction over 3 feet ) the blade isn't particularlly long as many rapiers tended to be, some of them extremely so. Its too bad there are no width dimensions listed as this would give a better impression of whether it was more of a rapier ( long and thin with a hard diamond cross section ) or more of a backsword/military sidesword with a broader blade of more flattened diamond cross section better suited to both cutting and thrusting more usefull on the battlefield. The " sword/rapier " in the listing gives me the impression that it may have more of a cut and thrust blade as i've heard the term used before to describe military sideswords.

27th July 2012, 09:23 PM	#3
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Absolutely, Barry, And it would most probably have doubled its price just a couple of years ago ... Items like that preserved in virtually untouched condition for hundreds of years are logically getting fewer and fewer each day due to crude overcleaning - SO PLEASE DO LEAVE YOUR ARMS THE WAY THEY ARE! Remember: you can always take something off old surfaces but you can never add a patina 'both convincing and real' ... at least for an experienced eye, that is. I guess I repeated that many times on the forum anyway ... Best, Michael Last edited by Matchlock; 27th July 2012 at 11:46 PM.

27th July 2012, 11:32 PM	#4
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Considering illustrative sources of period artwork, the very same type of rapier featuring a plum-shaped pommel and recurved quillons was part of a caliverman's equipment of c. 1600 as well - a colored engraving from Jacob de Gheyn's Wapenhandelinghe (1608) attached. For more information on characteristic caliverman's equipment of ca. 1600 to early-17th c. please see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...rman%27s+flask m Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 27th July 2012 at 11:45 PM.

25th July 2012, 04:18 PM	#1
Multumesc Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Romania Posts: 208	Very beautiful sword!!

26th July 2012, 05:49 PM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	A VERY NICE OLD SWORD, AND ITS GOOD TO SEE A PICTURE OF THE FULLY EQUIPED MUSKETEER ALONG WITH IT. THAT SHOWS HOW MUCH EQUIPMENT WAS CARRIED AS WELL AS THE SKILL AND PRACTICE REQUIRED TO USE IT ALL EFFECTIVELY.

27th July 2012, 11:39 PM	#5
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Considering illustrative sources of period artwork, the very same type of rapier featuring a plum-shaped pommel was part of the equipment of a caliverman of c. 1600 as well - a colored engraving from Jacob de Gheyn's Wapenhandelinghe (1608) attached. For more information on characteristic caliverman's equipment of ca. 1600 to early-17th c. please see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...rman%27s+flask m

30th July 2012, 04:44 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	Thank you Michael! Great pics and information. Totally with you on your well placed note on 'leaving the patination alone!'!!! So many wonderful weapons have been historically euthanized by such unfortunate zeal of arms gatherers (not collectors) who have no sense of historical importance and simply use them to impress or to sell. The patina is actually history incarnate, and was preciously earned in the aging of the weapon. It is interesting to know more on the use of the rapier in a military sense as well, since it is commonly misperceived that these were only civilian weapons.

30th July 2012, 07:56 PM	#7
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	What makes it a musketeer's rapier, as opposed to a non-musketeer's rapier?

31st July 2012, 01:44 AM	#10
A Senefelder Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 214	At 96 cm ( a fraction over 3 feet ) the blade isn't particularlly long as many rapiers tended to be, some of them extremely so. Its too bad there are no width dimensions listed as this would give a better impression of whether it was more of a rapier ( long and thin with a hard diamond cross section ) or more of a backsword/military sidesword with a broader blade of more flattened diamond cross section better suited to both cutting and thrusting more usefull on the battlefield. The " sword/rapier " in the listing gives me the impression that it may have more of a cut and thrust blade as i've heard the term used before to describe military sideswords.