An immense Khyber sword

[spiral]

On the origin questian of Lews piece, I {I think. } Interestingly seem to recall from Eggerton that the Kabul Armouries were often staffed by Sikhs weapon smiths from the Punjab or some such?

{Havent got a copy to hand so cant quote exactly & could be mistaken perhaps? Not read it for 10 or so years.}

Just a little bit more grist to the mill!

Spiral

[VANDOO]

WELL THIS POST DOES ESTABLISH A PROVENANCE OF SORTS.
CONSIDERING THE STORY OF THE AMOUNT OF MOVEMENT FROM COLLECTION TO COLLECTION I WOULD SAY THE PRICE WAS VERY REASONABLE. IF IT HAD BEEN SERIOUS DEALERS EACH ADDING THEIR MARK UPS FOR PROFIT IT SHOULD HAVE SOLD FOR MUCH MORE.
THE SELLER COULD HAVE SAID SWORD HIGHLY SOUGHT AFTER BY MANY. HAS BEEN IN THE COLLECTIONS OF SEVERAL NOTED COLLECTORS. UNIQUE POSSIBLY ASSOCIATED WITH THE CULT OF LEOPARD MEN, CHIEFS PERSONEL EXECUTION SWORD LARGEST EXAMPLE IN EXHISTANCE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DEATHS OF MANY.
DON'T LET THESE POSTS GET YOU DOWN ENJOY YOUR SWORD, IT HAS SURELY DRAWN MORE POSTS THAN MOST SWORDS AND IS CERTINALY INFAMOUS NOW , THIS THREAD HAS SET A BENCHMARK OF SORTS. YOU NOW ARE THE OWNER OF THIS FAMOUS SWORD AND NO ONE ELSE HAS ONE

[Norman McCormick]

Hi All,
I think some folks may have got the wrong end of the stick with regard to my post. I don't think I was being disparaging or negative merely calling into question the claims made by the seller as to the age of the piece nothing more, please reread my original post for clarification. A Forum member did buy a Tabar from this seller which upon receipt turned out to be "not as described". I have watched this seller on the net from whence he started and have not bought from him as I personally have been unable to satisfy myself as to the veracity of the descriptions given that is not to say that the descriptions themselves were inaccurate or untruthful. These items are not new and are therefore subject to "opinions" as the hard facts are no longer available. I stick to my guns, this Khyber knife is not in entirety from {1800-1849}, may or may not be in entirety from {India} and is not in entirety {original}. Text/dates in brackets are the words used by the seller. I sincerely hope that John is not put off but is, as was my intention, more aware that photos and descriptions can sometimes be misleading although whether or not this is the case here is yet to be resolved. I am only too aware that personal fiscal and emotional input is a part of "our hobby" and I have written on the Forum about this before but I am convinced in this case that I was appropriately diplomatic in my statements with regard to John's purchase.
My Regards to All,
Norman.

[Stasa Katz]

Gentlemen, thank you for giving your time here.

All in all, I feel satisfied. I was well aware that the scabbard was not original; am glad that I have a way to keep this big blade safe while learning to make good quality reproduction scabbards.

And the information you provided was valuable. This bigger blade lacks one feature that shows up on most other afghan blades, whether Khyber swords or chooras--a sort of lozenge that sits atop the spine of the blade just where the blade joins the handle.

The take home lesson is, never purchase unless

1) All photos of the item are high resolution and show the top -- the spine of the blade. A well forged choora/pesh kabz or salawar yatagan will show that the smith has given plenty of skilled attention to the that spine area of the blade. (Am not sure of terminology)

My hunch is that the handle may have been broken, leaving a shortened tang, hence a re-done blade with a shortened handle.

Once a tang has been broken, it would probably be hard to repair and restore to full length, unless I am mistaken.

Thank you all again.

Its part of the adventures of collecting.

[Atlantia]

Hi John,

When I handled it there were clear gaps around the fit of the hilt that appear to have been filled now. Any ideas what has been used?

[spiral]

To illustrate Genes point, Heres photos of it on one dealers website from about 2 months ago, & a photo of it as sold on ebay.....

I wonder John Is the handle still realy loose & floppin about or has the filler made it feel firm?

spiral

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by John Aubrey

Once a tang has been broken, it would probably be hard to repair and restore to full length, unless I am mistaken.

Thank you all again.

Its part of the adventures of collecting.

Hi John,

You've gone away with all the good in this and that is important, onwards and upwards.

With regards to a broken tang, I am sure many smiths with tell you here it is a very easy to fix with a simple lap weld, especially the tang as it can be then dressed up with new grip slabs and a grip strap.

Gav

[Jim McDougall]

Guys thank you so much for continuing this thread with these constructive observations! I really learn a great deal on observing these weapons in greater detail from those of you who handle these 'hands on' regularly. I must admit I often dont even notice some of the features and often flaws in the construction or reworked makeup of the pieces. This has become a most informative thread, nicely done!

All the best,
Jim

[ariel]

Well, based on the latest pics, the seller provided less than 100% complete description of the item.... The handle was the most unusual and appealing feature ( for me, at least), and securing it with epoxy was deceitful. Reworking the tang and putting a new handle is way too much for preserving the authenticity of this Khyber.

[Stasa Katz]

A quick note on the sword we have been discussing. The handle is a bit loose. I am not yet knowledgeable enough to guess what was used for the handle. Elements in handle are a bit loose but not to point of falling apart.

Am a rank amateur so am not going to try and tamper with this myself.

As an illustration of how fluid the entire region is, here is a snap shot of one man's career that matches how these blades can travel.

I am sure my blade is not as old as the First Afghan War. I did think it interesting to offer a description of one Afghan noble who chose to assist the British in a variety of capacities. He and his family and many of their soldiers went into exile and lived on British ruled territory far from their home territory in Afghanistan.

There must have been a great and complex array of blades in their hands. And in India, if they needed to take their weapons for repair to Indian smithies, this would have added yet further to the complexity--and left questions for collectors.

There was an Afghan noble who lived in Paghman, near Kabul, and chose to support Shah Shuja , who was placed on the throne by the British and the Army of the Indus, during the First Afghan War. (1841)

Later, this Afghan noble threw in his lot with the British and followed Sales back to EIO controlled territory and later settled near Meerut.

Lady Sales, in Kabul ('Cabul') mentions him.

I observe I have mentioned the Laird of Pughman (aka Paghman), a sobriquet applied to a good man, and a true one to the Shah and us. His proper name was the Syud Mahommed Khan, and for the good service he did in the Kohistan with Sale's force (Lady Sales husband), he obtained the honorary title of Jan Fishan Khan, or the nobleman who is the exterminator of his sovereign's enemies. It is a difficult sentence to render into English. Jan means life; Fishan, heedless of the life of your enemies, Khan, a lord or a nobleman...(quoted from A Journal of the Disasterss in Afghanistan by Lady Florentia Sales, page 29-30, Tantalion Press)

Jan Fishan Khan gave assistance to Robert Sales' forces. The British granted him lands and an income in an area near Meerut in what is now Northern India. Later he and his troops assisted the British in 1857

Imperial Gazetteer of India

http://books.google.com/books?id=xnd...ed=0CBkQ6AEwAQ

Wikipedia

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&hl=en&ct=clnk

There must have been a vast variety of blades in the hands of this clan chief and his retainers. Khan's career would have spanned territory held by the Afghans near Kabul, his flight would have taken place through either the Bolan or Khyber Pass, through Sikh held turf, and then south into what is now Northern India...and all these areas with different weapons and forges.

All interesting for collectors. Thank you all again for your time.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi All,
I think some folks may have got the wrong end of the stick with regard to my post. I don't think I was being disparaging or negative merely calling into question the claims made by the seller as to the age of the piece nothing more, please reread my original post for clarification. A Forum member did buy a Tabar from this seller which upon receipt turned out to be "not as described". I have watched this seller on the net from whence he started and have not bought from him as I personally have been unable to satisfy myself as to the veracity of the descriptions given that is not to say that the descriptions themselves were inaccurate or untruthful. These items are not new and are therefore subject to "opinions" as the hard facts are no longer available. I stick to my guns, this Khyber knife is not in entirety from {1800-1849}, may or may not be in entirety from {India} and is not in entirety {original}. Text/dates in brackets are the words used by the seller. I sincerely hope that John is not put off but is, as was my intention, more aware that photos and descriptions can sometimes be misleading although whether or not this is the case here is yet to be resolved. I am only too aware that personal fiscal and emotional input is a part of "our hobby" and I have written on the Forum about this before but I am convinced in this case that I was appropriately diplomatic in my statements with regard to John's purchase.
My Regards to All,
Norman.

Extremely well put Norman, and I would like to clarify that my own comments in no way were directed at you or your observations in particular, but that the overall context of the input on this item had taken a most negative demeanor. While I do not favor direct criticism of dealers or sellers openly on these pages, you indeed have a wonderfully diplomatic approach which is much appreciated and admirable, and think you well expressed your concerns. My intent was to return the focus to observing the character and its possible regional and historical details.
I apologize for any misunderstanding due to my comments, you write great stuff Norman!!!

All the best,
Jim

[Jim McDougall]

An excellent entry!!! I had forgotten about this wonderful book by Mr. Ondaatje, and it is truly a remarkable adventure he undertook in studying Richard Burton's time in India. Here is another perfect example of the importance of references and resources which tend to the events and cultures of specific regions in better understanding the weapons we collect and study.

The heading pesh kabz and choora in Sind is interesting and well placed as these were of course present in these areas, and of course it goes to the diffusion of these arms into and often throughout the Indian subcontinent.
The references to the Talpur's were rulers in Sindh in the 18th century who had not only come from Iranian descent, but the craftsmen there were often Persian as well who were influenced by Ottoman, Chinese and Indian styles as well as Persian.

The book by Ondaatje is fascinating and the reference to Talpurs sent me looking for an article (still not located) , "The Swords of the Shazadas and Talpurs", Peter Hayes, Connoisseur, Nov. 1971, Vol.178, #717. p.177-

I would here note that the term 'pesh kabz' is sometimes a conundrum in exactly when it should be applied and to which of the grouping of knives known in these areas. The pesh kabz (Persian= fore front) is typically a dagger with recurved blade with T spine, however there are examples with straight blade narrowing dramatically to point very much resembling the 'Khyber knife'. It seems as daggers these may often be termed 'choora' as the smaller 'knife or dagger' form of the Khyber, but the term choora itself seems to be a general term for knife in either Urdu or Punjabi, perhaps boith. With the unclear nature of the choora term, it seems in some references even the Khyber itself has been termed choora.

The Afghan dagger 'karud' is often much like a pesh kabz but much heavier and often shaped like a Khyber but the grip is much bolder.

It seems further that the recurved blade in the pesh kabz has become represented throughout India in the 'chilanum' with somewhat anthromorphic hilt as well as the khanjharli with a mushroom shaped pommel as well as the khanjhar with parrothead type hilt.

The karud and Khyber knife seem primarily Afghan, along with the smaller straight blade pesh kabz often termed 'choora'. While Afghan weapons do reflect a degree of Persian influence in thier often less well executed openwork in decoration, it certainly does not seem to me to the extent of Uzbek or Sindhi weapons. Again, in Afghanistan the craftsmanship is often situated in remote tribal regions and reflecting nominally the influences of interloping arms. The craftsmanship in Sind seems more inclined to direct Persian influences in court oriented craftsmen, and the case in Bukhara as well.

[Stasa Katz]

Someone could write a book or at least a monograph on the subject of how walrus ivory was:

1)First identified as an article of interest,

2) How it became a desirable commodity in Central Asia and Persia/India,

3 Who who the groups and ethnicities were who formed the trading network for it.

That would be a way to frame a narrative and organize a journey that would encompass cultures, histories, and artistic centers--and a discussion of various types of weapons and other utensils for which walrus ivory was used as decoration.

Elephant ivory was an ancient and valuable material, already familiar to artists and connoisseurs. Walrus ivory must have had special appeal as something new and exotic. Would be interesting to know if special properties were ascribed to it, as it reached these Turkic, Persian, Afghan and Indian/Sikh/Moghul areas.

From the Far North to Central Asia and into North India - what a journey. What was the human and cultural chain of contact?

And it would be interesting to figure out how early it first appeared at various courts in Central Asia and Persia/India as an artistic medium.

There might have been one emporium that could have played a part: Nizhni-Novgorod, site of a very important trading fair into the 19th Century.

Marquis Alphonse de Custine travelled to the fair at Nijni (his spelling) in 1839. He noted that precious stones were traded there, along with furs of every description, iron goods, tea, kashmir wool and that each commodity area was the size of a city.

Long before, Custine informs us, the fair had taken place on the property of a boyar, Makarieff, and was later transferred to the nearby town of Nizjni

http://books.google.com/books?id=ksg...-1&output=html

Russians, Persians, Kalmucks, Tibetans, Kirghiz, Chinese, all and more came to trade and exchange goods.

http://books.google.com/books?id=ksg...ed=0CBoQ6AEwAg

Am wondering if it was through the medium of the Nijni emporium that this novel and expensive material from the far North (walrus ivory) could have made its way to the courts of the Emirs--and onto the two pesh kabz daggers Mr Ondaatje was so fortunate to find, to love and bring home after his visit to Sindh.

To verify this, we would have to find primary source documents placing Russians in Nijni or the earlier Makrieff fair at the node of the walrus ivory trade route.

Custine while at Niznithat the Russians got much of their wealth producing iron, from mines in the Urals, staffed by convicted prisoners. He describes the iron goods section as being the size of a town.

Final note: Can any iron ore be used to create fine wootz? Or is only ore from certain sources the correct material for true wootz?

Iron production in the Urals began to pick up during the reign of Peter the Great (1680s to 1722) who needed all the Russian made cannon he could get in his war against Charles II of Sweden.

So Russia became a very important source of iron starting in the early to
mid 18 th century.

Would be interesting to do a trace and see any of this Russian produced iron have made its way to smiths who knew how to create wootz steel.

Probably for this one needs metallurgy experts who are friends and have the right lab equipment including a spectrometer.

Trading the metallurgical signatures of various blades would be a great parallel to the work being done on the human genome and how our ancestors have travelled the world.

[Jim McDougall]

Actually the topic of walrus ivory at least as pertains to Indian arms was dealt with in a chapter by Dr. G.N.Pant in his "Indian Arms and Armour" (1979).

Returning to the regional history of Central Asian areas including Afghanistan which gives outstanding overview of the geopolitical turmoil and tribal interaction is "The Great Game" by Peter Hopkirk, I do not recall date of publication.

Most of these topics mentioned have been discussed at length on these pages over the past fifteen years, and the search feature will reveal the discourse and findings often reached. There are a good number of members here who are most impressively versed in the metallurgy of these weapons (I am not one unfortunately ) . We have always tried to include sources and cites in discussions and as a result the search on certain topics will often show the amazing bibliography of references used through these.

Most of the movement of these valuable commodities and materials are of course important in the study of trade routes and cultural interaction throughout history. The study of these venues is also an excellent source for understanding the diffusion of many weapon forms as well as thier development and history, one of the very important aspects of our studies here.

[Lew]

John

As far as the Iron ore is concerned only certain areas had clean ore. Most ore had too much sulfur and other contaminants to used to make wootz. I believe that is why wootz fell out of favor it became harder to find clean ore plus it was very labor intensive to forge. Pattern welded blades were a bit less time consuming to make and were probably equal in lateral stress strength as the older wootz sword blades.

[Timo Nieminen]

Originally Posted by John Aubrey

Someone could write a book or at least a monograph on the subject of how walrus ivory was:

1)First identified as an article of interest,

2) How it became a desirable commodity in Central Asia and Persia/India,

3 Who who the groups and ethnicities were who formed the trading network for it.

It's an old trade, medieval or older. I don't know any modern papers/books, but the topic has been covered:

Arabic and Chinese Trade in Walrus and Narwhal Ivory
Berthold Laufer and Paul Pelliot
T'oung Pao , Second Series, Vol. 14, No. 3 (1913), pp. 315-370
Article Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/4526349

Supplementary Notes on Walrus and Narwhal Ivory
Berthold Laufer
T'oung Pao , Second Series, Vol. 17, No. 3 (Jul., 1916), pp. 348-389
Article Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/4526501

... and perhaps there is something in Laufer's book, Ivory in China (freely available at http://archive.org/details/ivoryinchina21lauf ).

[Stasa Katz]

And yes, the internet, well used, is a marvel.

Thank you again..

[Norman McCormick]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Extremely well put Norman, and I would like to clarify that my own comments in no way were directed at you or your observations in particular, but that the overall context of the input on this item had taken a most negative demeanor. While I do not favor direct criticism of dealers or sellers openly on these pages, you indeed have a wonderfully diplomatic approach which is much appreciated and admirable, and think you well expressed your concerns. My intent was to return the focus to observing the character and its possible regional and historical details.
I apologize for any misunderstanding due to my comments, you write great stuff Norman!!!

All the best,
Jim

Hi Jim,
No problems, I only wish the net and a resource like the one we are fortunate enough to have here had been available when I first became interested in 'our hobby', it would have saved a lot of gnashing of teeth and wasting of hard earned funds. I'm glad to see that the debate has raised further questions and as always I'm following the discussion with much interest. Safe travels.
Kind Regards,
Norman.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Jim,
No problems, I only wish the net and a resource like the one we are fortunate enough to have here had been available when I first became interested in 'our hobby', it would have saved a lot of gnashing of teeth and wasting of hard earned funds. I'm glad to see that the debate has raised further questions and as always I'm following the discussion with much interest. Safe travels.
Kind Regards,
Norman.

Exactly! Back in my early days B.C. (=before computers) I can recall waiting weeks, often months for replies to pertinant queries in research, and if one did not have the necessary reference books or access to well informed contacts nearby, you were on your own buying items. Dealers were most creative in thier 'tales' and most convincing.
I can recall even getting responses to letters over a year later, in at least several instances years later!
These forums and cyberworld are magnificent, and this all seems like some sort of space odyssey to me

All the best,
JIm