An immense Khyber sword

[ariel]

Well, the drag on the scabbard looks afghani to me, akin to military examples.

[Jim McDougall]

I must agree on the negativity point as well as disparaging notes. It seems clear that John was quite pleased with this Khyber and was kind enough to share it here, then the barrage of discrediting comments certainly must have quickly taken the wind out of his sails.

In my opinion this piece regardless if relatively modernly refurbished (and John made well placed points on these common cases) remains a representative example of these weapons which of course have been used even into more current times.The blade does seem of age, and as has been noted the grip material and the cast pommel are of course replacements.
The simple motif of dots in circle are well known in Afghan items as are other features in context, and to me I see nothing suggesting this might be from Indian regions to the south.

In remote tribal regions weapons are constantly refurbished and especially during times of war or unrest, situations that have remained in flux in tribal regions of Afghanistan throughout recent history. I would consider this an interesting example of these distinct tribal weapons of Afghanistan and as been well pointed out, its rough demeanor suggests it was for use rather than tourist consumption.

Throughout the years that I collected I acquired many weapons that others scoffed at, mostly because I saw them for what they were, and even though not necessarily at the standards of others, I truly enjoyed them for what I learned from them. I also learned about certain protocols toward the weapons of others, and perhaps I am a bit too 'old school'.

[weapons 27]

hi john

in my opinion the handle is not original; and was cut...and modified
What is on is that the person who sold you the sword, sells of the nine of the old ! one must be very careful...

[Lew]

[QUOTE=Jim McDougall]I and to me I see nothing suggesting this might be from Indian regions to the south.

Jim

The monster motif can be seen on many examples from Southern India but they tend to be in a serpent form except for the bottom one which looks like a cross between some type of tiger or lion? The only thing that I could come up with that resembles the hilt is the demon head hilt on a Bhutan sword. Patas also have similar designs on the hilt.

[Jim McDougall]

[QUOTE=Lew]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I and to me I see nothing suggesting this might be from Indian regions to the south.

Jim

The monster motif can be seen on many examples from Southern India but they tend to be in a serpent form except for the bottom one which looks like a cross between some type of tiger or lion? The only thing that I could come up with that resembles the hilt is the demon head hilt on a Bhutan sword. Patas also have similar designs on the hilt.

Well observed Lew. While it is true that most grotesque zoomorphics are generally held to be used in 'southern' Indian motifs, it is also known that stylized versions were quite present in northern regions. The yali and makara are of course deeply represented in Hindu theology, but the applications seem adopted in other contexts as well. The diversity of influences affecting weapon and component industry in many areas in Rajasthan certainly reflected many of these kinds of representations.

The bottom sword is I believe from the western Malabar regions and perhaps into regions of the Deccan, and the zoomorphic head is most interesting as it strongly resembles 'doghead' or 'lionhead' pommels on 18th century British military swords (c. 1770s-90s).

All best regards,
Jim

[Jim McDougall]

Im very glad we have moved part the 'value' issues on this Khyber and have returned to discussion of the ethnographic forensics of the sword itself. In my opinion if a weapon is bought for personal enjoyment and satisfaction in accord with ones interests, not for resale, then within reason the cost is irrelevant.

I also appreciate the excellent observations being placed in order to set a plausible time frame and possible regional attribution to the weapon.
Jonathan, excellent grist for the mill on the note on Sikh armourers in Kabul!!! I have to dig out my Egerton now

As Lew has well noted, the borders in these Northwest regions were notoriously vague in the 19th century, and of course tribally remain very much so regardless of any cartography. As I was well advised by a notable writer on these regions many years ago, '..weapons of course have no geographic boundaries".

The zoomorphic head on this pommel is in stylized fashion reminiscent of the makara heads from regions in India, as well as the horned devil head from the Qajars. It should be remembered that Central Asian weapons were strongly influenced by Persian much as were many Indian forms, and this of course profoundly includes Afghanistan. The dramatic stylization here is compellingly suggestive of tribal efforts in crafting in these often remote areas.

The dot in circle motif, though known in other areas, is notably present in Afghan weapon motif and I have seen these often profusely decorating thier daggers, lohars and even on a buzkhashi whip handle I have.
I would point out, as has been well noted, variation, sometimes even somewhat extreme, is typical in weaponry in these remote regions, and though most warfare is modern, the traditional weapons are still very much in use. Modern weapons were actually not necessarily available to many if not most warriors, and they resorted to whatever weapons they could find.

The blade markings noted by Ibrahiim are nearly indiscernable representations of the 'sickle' marks of usually dentated half circles with three dots at each end, the others seem to represent the linear X and letter marks often seen on 17th and 18th century trade blades of the type seen often on khandas. The sickle marks are one of the most often marking configurations typically seen on paluoar blades, which of course are distinctly recognized as Afghan swords. This blade I agree seems to have good age to it, and may date into the latter part of the 19th century.

This would place the blade itself in use at the time of events of considerable importance in these regions, and times of high adventure and historic magnitude. It was easily in use in my opinion before the turn of the century and then may have even seen use during the 3rd Anglo-Afghan war in 1919, when many older Afghan weapons were fashioned into ersatz supply for many native forces. We have seen numbers of these hybrids and anomalies over the years. The strife continued well into the 1930s between the British and tribal factions, and of course the presence of warfare in these regions remains it seems eternally at hand.

With these things considered, I think it is a fascinating example...of course it is simply my opinion, but think if nothing else, the blade has stories to tell, this old warrior from "The Great Game" . !!!

All best regards,
Jim

[Lew]

Originally Posted by ariel

Well, the drag on the scabbard looks afghani to me, akin to military examples.

Ariel

The scabbard is a recently made replacement made within the last 50 yrs or so it is not original to the knife.

[ariel]

Originally Posted by Lew

Ariel

The scabbard is a recently made replacement made within the last 50 yrs or so it is not original to the knife.

Yes, I understand, but it means that the khyber itself was residing in Afghanistan at the end of the 19th - beginning of 20th century ( when the military khybers were abundant) and perceived as Afghani by the natives. What made people believe it was Indian? Those usually have much more elaborate handles. This one is IMHO far too simple for the indian variety. Blade, - I can see your point: chiseling, bling-bling..... :-)

[Lew]

Northern India in the 19th century is now Pakistan and the border now is very fluid

[spiral]

On the origin questian of Lews piece, I {I think. } Interestingly seem to recall from Eggerton that the Kabul Armouries were often staffed by Sikhs weapon smiths from the Punjab or some such?

{Havent got a copy to hand so cant quote exactly & could be mistaken perhaps? Not read it for 10 or so years.}

Just a little bit more grist to the mill!

Spiral

[VANDOO]

WELL THIS POST DOES ESTABLISH A PROVENANCE OF SORTS.
CONSIDERING THE STORY OF THE AMOUNT OF MOVEMENT FROM COLLECTION TO COLLECTION I WOULD SAY THE PRICE WAS VERY REASONABLE. IF IT HAD BEEN SERIOUS DEALERS EACH ADDING THEIR MARK UPS FOR PROFIT IT SHOULD HAVE SOLD FOR MUCH MORE.
THE SELLER COULD HAVE SAID SWORD HIGHLY SOUGHT AFTER BY MANY. HAS BEEN IN THE COLLECTIONS OF SEVERAL NOTED COLLECTORS. UNIQUE POSSIBLY ASSOCIATED WITH THE CULT OF LEOPARD MEN, CHIEFS PERSONEL EXECUTION SWORD LARGEST EXAMPLE IN EXHISTANCE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DEATHS OF MANY.
DON'T LET THESE POSTS GET YOU DOWN ENJOY YOUR SWORD, IT HAS SURELY DRAWN MORE POSTS THAN MOST SWORDS AND IS CERTINALY INFAMOUS NOW , THIS THREAD HAS SET A BENCHMARK OF SORTS. YOU NOW ARE THE OWNER OF THIS FAMOUS SWORD AND NO ONE ELSE HAS ONE

[Norman McCormick]

Hi All,
I think some folks may have got the wrong end of the stick with regard to my post. I don't think I was being disparaging or negative merely calling into question the claims made by the seller as to the age of the piece nothing more, please reread my original post for clarification. A Forum member did buy a Tabar from this seller which upon receipt turned out to be "not as described". I have watched this seller on the net from whence he started and have not bought from him as I personally have been unable to satisfy myself as to the veracity of the descriptions given that is not to say that the descriptions themselves were inaccurate or untruthful. These items are not new and are therefore subject to "opinions" as the hard facts are no longer available. I stick to my guns, this Khyber knife is not in entirety from {1800-1849}, may or may not be in entirety from {India} and is not in entirety {original}. Text/dates in brackets are the words used by the seller. I sincerely hope that John is not put off but is, as was my intention, more aware that photos and descriptions can sometimes be misleading although whether or not this is the case here is yet to be resolved. I am only too aware that personal fiscal and emotional input is a part of "our hobby" and I have written on the Forum about this before but I am convinced in this case that I was appropriately diplomatic in my statements with regard to John's purchase.
My Regards to All,
Norman.

[Stasa Katz]

Gentlemen, thank you for giving your time here.

All in all, I feel satisfied. I was well aware that the scabbard was not original; am glad that I have a way to keep this big blade safe while learning to make good quality reproduction scabbards.

And the information you provided was valuable. This bigger blade lacks one feature that shows up on most other afghan blades, whether Khyber swords or chooras--a sort of lozenge that sits atop the spine of the blade just where the blade joins the handle.

The take home lesson is, never purchase unless

1) All photos of the item are high resolution and show the top -- the spine of the blade. A well forged choora/pesh kabz or salawar yatagan will show that the smith has given plenty of skilled attention to the that spine area of the blade. (Am not sure of terminology)

My hunch is that the handle may have been broken, leaving a shortened tang, hence a re-done blade with a shortened handle.

Once a tang has been broken, it would probably be hard to repair and restore to full length, unless I am mistaken.

Thank you all again.

Its part of the adventures of collecting.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi All,
I think some folks may have got the wrong end of the stick with regard to my post. I don't think I was being disparaging or negative merely calling into question the claims made by the seller as to the age of the piece nothing more, please reread my original post for clarification. A Forum member did buy a Tabar from this seller which upon receipt turned out to be "not as described". I have watched this seller on the net from whence he started and have not bought from him as I personally have been unable to satisfy myself as to the veracity of the descriptions given that is not to say that the descriptions themselves were inaccurate or untruthful. These items are not new and are therefore subject to "opinions" as the hard facts are no longer available. I stick to my guns, this Khyber knife is not in entirety from {1800-1849}, may or may not be in entirety from {India} and is not in entirety {original}. Text/dates in brackets are the words used by the seller. I sincerely hope that John is not put off but is, as was my intention, more aware that photos and descriptions can sometimes be misleading although whether or not this is the case here is yet to be resolved. I am only too aware that personal fiscal and emotional input is a part of "our hobby" and I have written on the Forum about this before but I am convinced in this case that I was appropriately diplomatic in my statements with regard to John's purchase.
My Regards to All,
Norman.

Extremely well put Norman, and I would like to clarify that my own comments in no way were directed at you or your observations in particular, but that the overall context of the input on this item had taken a most negative demeanor. While I do not favor direct criticism of dealers or sellers openly on these pages, you indeed have a wonderfully diplomatic approach which is much appreciated and admirable, and think you well expressed your concerns. My intent was to return the focus to observing the character and its possible regional and historical details.
I apologize for any misunderstanding due to my comments, you write great stuff Norman!!!

All the best,
Jim