An immense Khyber sword

[Lew]

John

Based on the feedback from your post may I suggest you contact the seller and ask for a refund. You laid out a lot of $$$ for this piece plus if you had it shipped to the USA you laid out $43 in shipping fees

[Stasa Katz]

Ha, this is a blade collector's version of of the Artur Schniztler play, La Ronde.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Ronde_(play)

Ah, this blade has had its travels, eh?

In consolation, I do have a true Khyber and sheath that are the real deal.

[ariel]

I cannot recall another example of such a uniformly-negative opinion on this rather polite and placid Forum!

BTW, Lew, on the 3 from above pic you posted, the lowest khyber ( the one with virtually no pommel, - do you have any idea how old it was? I have a suspicion that such pommel-less handles are seen on really old ones. Here is the opportunity to verify my hypothesis:-)

[Lew]

Ariel

That one is probably Indian and not Afghan. Artzi had one on his table a few year back and that was the consensus. 1825-1850 I would think? Probably belonged to someone of high status. Let me clearify Northern India AKA Pakistan

[ariel]

Well, the drag on the scabbard looks afghani to me, akin to military examples.

[Jim McDougall]

I must agree on the negativity point as well as disparaging notes. It seems clear that John was quite pleased with this Khyber and was kind enough to share it here, then the barrage of discrediting comments certainly must have quickly taken the wind out of his sails.

In my opinion this piece regardless if relatively modernly refurbished (and John made well placed points on these common cases) remains a representative example of these weapons which of course have been used even into more current times.The blade does seem of age, and as has been noted the grip material and the cast pommel are of course replacements.
The simple motif of dots in circle are well known in Afghan items as are other features in context, and to me I see nothing suggesting this might be from Indian regions to the south.

In remote tribal regions weapons are constantly refurbished and especially during times of war or unrest, situations that have remained in flux in tribal regions of Afghanistan throughout recent history. I would consider this an interesting example of these distinct tribal weapons of Afghanistan and as been well pointed out, its rough demeanor suggests it was for use rather than tourist consumption.

Throughout the years that I collected I acquired many weapons that others scoffed at, mostly because I saw them for what they were, and even though not necessarily at the standards of others, I truly enjoyed them for what I learned from them. I also learned about certain protocols toward the weapons of others, and perhaps I am a bit too 'old school'.

[weapons 27]

hi john

in my opinion the handle is not original; and was cut...and modified
What is on is that the person who sold you the sword, sells of the nine of the old ! one must be very careful...

[Lew]

[QUOTE=Jim McDougall]I and to me I see nothing suggesting this might be from Indian regions to the south.

Jim

The monster motif can be seen on many examples from Southern India but they tend to be in a serpent form except for the bottom one which looks like a cross between some type of tiger or lion? The only thing that I could come up with that resembles the hilt is the demon head hilt on a Bhutan sword. Patas also have similar designs on the hilt.

[Jim McDougall]

[QUOTE=Lew]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I and to me I see nothing suggesting this might be from Indian regions to the south.

Jim

The monster motif can be seen on many examples from Southern India but they tend to be in a serpent form except for the bottom one which looks like a cross between some type of tiger or lion? The only thing that I could come up with that resembles the hilt is the demon head hilt on a Bhutan sword. Patas also have similar designs on the hilt.

Well observed Lew. While it is true that most grotesque zoomorphics are generally held to be used in 'southern' Indian motifs, it is also known that stylized versions were quite present in northern regions. The yali and makara are of course deeply represented in Hindu theology, but the applications seem adopted in other contexts as well. The diversity of influences affecting weapon and component industry in many areas in Rajasthan certainly reflected many of these kinds of representations.

The bottom sword is I believe from the western Malabar regions and perhaps into regions of the Deccan, and the zoomorphic head is most interesting as it strongly resembles 'doghead' or 'lionhead' pommels on 18th century British military swords (c. 1770s-90s).

All best regards,
Jim

[Lew]

Originally Posted by ariel

Well, the drag on the scabbard looks afghani to me, akin to military examples.

Ariel

The scabbard is a recently made replacement made within the last 50 yrs or so it is not original to the knife.

[ariel]

Originally Posted by Lew

Ariel

The scabbard is a recently made replacement made within the last 50 yrs or so it is not original to the knife.

Yes, I understand, but it means that the khyber itself was residing in Afghanistan at the end of the 19th - beginning of 20th century ( when the military khybers were abundant) and perceived as Afghani by the natives. What made people believe it was Indian? Those usually have much more elaborate handles. This one is IMHO far too simple for the indian variety. Blade, - I can see your point: chiseling, bling-bling..... :-)

[Lew]

Northern India in the 19th century is now Pakistan and the border now is very fluid