A couple mortars for comments

Matchlock · 5th June 2012, 02:52 PM

Hi 'Nando,

It sure is a tricky thing to discern whether these short barrels are mortars or actual hand cannon that were stocked originally.

The shape and surface of these two specimen would allow both interpretations. If they were hand cannon I would say they are at least 500 years old. If they were mortars they mave have been made as late as the early 19th century. As such items were always kept in the open and hardly ever saw any care or oil they alyways look kind of rotten and 'extremely old'. The rough inner surfaces seem to suggest that they were not bored out but left the way they were when wrought around an iron core.

The feature of a touch hole spiked and relocated is a thing only found on actually very old barrels as it eemed to take a tremendous time span to wear out a touch hole to the extent that too much gas left. Apart from that, touch holes of ca. 1500 often were unusually large right from the start, as I have pointed out in former threads on my early barrels.

In any case I can add a few items from my collection to Rick's input on linstocks and especially igniting irons which were used to fire all kinds of firearms without mechanisms. I do not think though that the barrel with the smaller touch hole was meant for match ignition as match cord was at least 10 mm thick, and often even much thicker while the small pointed prick of an igniting iron could reach into a small touch hole. Unfortunately, this prick is now missing from the few suriving igniting irons.

Please see also

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=15th+barrels

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=linstocks

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=linstocks

Best,
Michl

Matchlock · 5th June 2012, 03:15 PM

A few more close-ups of the serpent head of my igniting iron, mid-16th c.

The original igniting prick (Zündstachel) for entering the touch hole, which seems to have been an extension of the mouth (now flattened), is missing.

m

fernando · 5th June 2012, 05:35 PM

Thank you for your input, Michl.
This time i would go for the mortar version, but maybe a bit earlier, like late XVIII century. What do you think?
Here they are again, after a good wash, some scrubbing with a brass brush and an oil soaking session.

.

Matchlock · 5th June 2012, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Thank you for your input, Michl.
This time i would go for the mortar version, but maybe a bit earlier, like late XVIII century. What do you think?
Here they are again, after a good wash, some scrubbing with a brass brush and an oil soaking session.

I still can't tell for sure what exactly their use was. Remember that many 14th/15th c. 'handgonnes' were used as mortars for centuries after.

I liked them better in their original patina though.

m

Matchlock · 5th June 2012, 07:52 PM

From my collection.

The first photo presents a length of characteristically thick Austrian matchcord, 15th or early 16th century, diameter ca. 1.7 cm; the other pieces and bundles of match with an average diameter of ca. 1.2 to 1.5 mm.

Attached at the bottom, in a detail of the representation of the Battle of Pavia, 1525, we see a length of matchcord carried wound around the arquebusier's left arm; as the cord is noticeably way too thick to fit the delicate jaws of match of the serpentine it was only used to light a small piece of tinder that actually ignited the arquebus.

m

fernando · 5th June 2012, 09:31 PM

Fantastic, Michl !
Do they tend to desintegrate with time or they preserve themselves without much care ?
and ... do you usually see these materials out there ... like in auctions ?

Matchlock · 5th June 2012, 10:05 PM

Well 'Nando,

Matchcord is natural hemp so it tends to disintegrate and definitely does lose a bit of material each time it is handled. Interesting enough, most of the substance is still there after such a long period of time.

I acquired two complete bundles (!) of early 17tth c. matchcord, each ca. 5 m long and formerly in the Emden armory, some 25 years ago privately.

Another bundle and various lengths turned up in international sales once in a blue moon, e.g. Christie's, Sept 20, 2007 (image attached), and the rest I got by pivate contacts. These rarest things are immensely expensive.

There is matchcord from nine different provenances in my collection.

Best,
Michl

5th June 2012, 02:52 PM	#1
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi 'Nando, It sure is a tricky thing to discern whether these short barrels are mortars or actual hand cannon that were stocked originally. The shape and surface of these two specimen would allow both interpretations. If they were hand cannon I would say they are at least 500 years old. If they were mortars they mave have been made as late as the early 19th century. As such items were always kept in the open and hardly ever saw any care or oil they alyways look kind of rotten and 'extremely old'. The rough inner surfaces seem to suggest that they were not bored out but left the way they were when wrought around an iron core. The feature of a touch hole spiked and relocated is a thing only found on actually very old barrels as it eemed to take a tremendous time span to wear out a touch hole to the extent that too much gas left. Apart from that, touch holes of ca. 1500 often were unusually large right from the start, as I have pointed out in former threads on my early barrels. In any case I can add a few items from my collection to Rick's input on linstocks and especially igniting irons which were used to fire all kinds of firearms without mechanisms. I do not think though that the barrel with the smaller touch hole was meant for match ignition as match cord was at least 10 mm thick, and often even much thicker while the small pointed prick of an igniting iron could reach into a small touch hole. Unfortunately, this prick is now missing from the few suriving igniting irons. Please see also http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=15th+barrels http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=linstocks http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=linstocks Best, Michl Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 5th June 2012 at 03:32 PM.

5th June 2012, 03:15 PM	#2
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	A few more close-ups of the serpent head of my igniting iron, mid-16th c. The original igniting prick (Zündstachel) for entering the touch hole, which seems to have been an extension of the mouth (now flattened), is missing. m Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 6th June 2012 at 02:58 PM.

5th June 2012, 05:35 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thank you for your input, Michl. This time i would go for the mortar version, but maybe a bit earlier, like late XVIII century. What do you think? Here they are again, after a good wash, some scrubbing with a brass brush and an oil soaking session. . Attached Images

5th June 2012, 07:52 PM	#5
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Original 16th to 17th c. matchcord From my collection. The first photo presents a length of characteristically thick Austrian matchcord, 15th or early 16th century, diameter ca. 1.7 cm; the other pieces and bundles of match with an average diameter of ca. 1.2 to 1.5 mm. Attached at the bottom, in a detail of the representation of the Battle of Pavia, 1525, we see a length of matchcord carried wound around the arquebusier's left arm; as the cord is noticeably way too thick to fit the delicate jaws of match of the serpentine it was only used to light a small piece of tinder that actually ignited the arquebus. m Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 5th June 2012 at 08:24 PM.

5th June 2012, 10:05 PM	#7
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Well 'Nando, Matchcord is natural hemp so it tends to disintegrate and definitely does lose a bit of material each time it is handled. Interesting enough, most of the substance is still there after such a long period of time. I acquired two complete bundles (!) of early 17tth c. matchcord, each ca. 5 m long and formerly in the Emden armory, some 25 years ago privately. Another bundle and various lengths turned up in international sales once in a blue moon, e.g. Christie's, Sept 20, 2007 (image attached), and the rest I got by pivate contacts. These rarest things are immensely expensive. There is matchcord from nine different provenances in my collection. Best, Michl Attached Images

5th June 2012, 09:31 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Fantastic, Michl ! Do they tend to desintegrate with time or they preserve themselves without much care ? and ... do you usually see these materials out there ... like in auctions ?