The Falchion or Malchus, the rarest medieval sword

cornelistromp · 6th April 2012, 02:14 PM

yes, Iam a friend of provenance

I expect that every serious sword enthusiast is familiar with this sword, a beautiful pommel formed outof 3 pieces and a unique Oakeshott type XVIII, " type? castillon G-A hoard blade".
The pommel is an absolutely beautiful work of art in itself with the legend Archiepiscopus and the arms of the cros family, possible to link direct to the cardinal/archbishop Pierre de Cros. the blade acts as a work of art not far behind.

If I may speak freely and open , and I sincerely hope I did not kick somebody against the sore leg.
If it would be in my possession, I would find out if the original pommel and original blade belong together or if it is later composed.
(I have no idea how to investigate this though, probably we now do need the expert eye here which you refered to in your previous post.)
Please do not get me wrong, it is only because the combination seems strange to me.
The blade seems to me outof the castillon hoard and I only would expect another pommel, as the known ones , not so exceptionally beautiful and unique.

best,

Swordfish · 9th April 2012, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

yes, Iam a friend of provenance

I expect that every serious sword enthusiast is familiar with this sword, a beautiful pommel formed outof 3 pieces and a unique Oakeshott type XVIII, " type? castillon G-A hoard blade".
The pommel is an absolutely beautiful work of art in itself with the legend Archiepiscopus and the arms of the cros family, possible to link direct to the cardinal/archbishop Pierre de Cros. the blade acts as a work of art not far behind.

If I may speak freely and open , and I sincerely hope I did not kick somebody against the sore leg.
If it would be in my possession, I would find out if the original pommel and original blade belong together or if it is later composed.
(I have no idea how to investigate this though, probably we now do need the expert eye here which you refered to in your previous post.)
Please do not get me wrong, it is only because the combination seems strange to me.
The blade seems to me outof the castillon hoard and I only would expect another pommel, as the known ones , not so exceptionally beautiful and unique.

best,

Well observed !

The blade, cross and pommel are surely genuine, but do they belong together? In this case no scientific test can ever help you, only your eye can help you.

When I saw the photo for the first time, the first that struck me, were the unbalanced proportions. The pommel is too large for a single hand sword. The blade and the remains of the cross show a close resemblance to the Castillon swords, including the patination and the corroded spots. For a single hand sword of this type I would also expect a pommel of wheel type and a tang button.

Pierre de Cros was appointed as Archbishop of Arles in 1374. If we assume that the pommel was not made much later, we have a date of c.1375. If we further assume, that the sword was not the first of its type, but in fashion ab. ten or twenty years before, we have a date for this sword type c. 1355-1365.

The Castillon swords are generally dated c.1410-1450. Is it likely that half of the swords from Castillon were of a nearly one hundred years old type? I don`t think so. I believe that the pommel was assembled to a cheap Castillon sword, to increase its value. I therefore would never acquire this sword.

But an assumption is no proof. Under usual circumstances, it would not be possible to proof that the pommel was added later.

But contacts to other collectors are allways helpfull. A collecting colleague of me saw this pommel many years ago as a single item in an antigue shop in Italy. He did not acquired it, because it was too expensive. I fully trust this collector. Then this is the proof for me.

Best

cornelistromp · 10th April 2012, 02:09 PM

thanks, here we also agree.
because the tang is relatively wide, it is likely that the pommel did not fit at once.
Then somewhere material must have been removed, inside pommel or outside tang. if this is the case, it can be seen by the eye of an expert.

The collecting colleague, is he skilled and his first name starts with an F?

best,

wardlaw · 11th October 2012, 09:54 AM

If you'll forgive the resurrection of a resting post!

A fascinating discussion, thnaks to all for sharing the fruits of their research. The falchion is a weapon I am very interested in myself, and it is good to know that therre are more examples out there than I had hitherto known.

What are peoples' thoughts about the link between the flachion and the messer?

fernando · 11th October 2012, 10:33 AM

Welcome to the forum wardlaw

.
Always time for a resurrection

.
I hope you find it pleasant being with us.

wardlaw · 11th October 2012, 01:37 PM

Thanks Fernando.

I was going back over the thread and I see that J.G.Elmslie had already suggested a link between these blade forms. i am sure that he is right. I would also look at the hunting swords as another member of the family.

Wiht regard to the image of St Peter from Cracow, I wonder if the archetype here might not be the cleaver-like knife from a hunting trousseau? The argument against that, of course, is the hilt form, which is clearly sword rather than knife.

The synchronicity of three of us all working on aspects of falchions and messers is quite terrifying!

J.G.Elmslie · 11th October 2012, 05:56 PM

Guilty as charged.

I've been a bit lax in my research the last few months; been sidelined by historical consultancy work for a videogame company. It pays the bills...

that said, I've generally come to a few conclusions, as the research has slowly progressed, and I've been fortunate enough to address design details with the likes of Peter Johnsson.

I'm absolutely in agreement with (Mr?)Wardlaw, in regards to the hunting swords as well as messer. studying the falchion in isolation is futile, what's needed is the data on all the single-edged weapon forms of western europe - falchion, messer, the langes messer, the single-edged hangers, and the single-edged swords like the Bankside Sword now in the Royal Armouries.

All of these are inter-related, not just in terms of the handling properties, but in their design, construction, and their methodologies of use and the relevance in terms of social structure.

I'm steadily feeling that things like the messer were more popular in germanic regions as a result of cultural values, more than any practical difference in the weapons' performance, but also that their production was dictated by the different social structures, not so much the old trotted out idea of swords only being the property of certain social classes, but that sword production was the perogative of certain facets of the guilds, who each jealously guarded their niche markets, and in the case of cutlers and knife-blade makers, were actively wanting to muscle in on the economic markets that their similar skills could exploit.

I also cant help but feel that the falchion, messer and single-edged sword must be addressed and studied in light of Peter Johnsson's superb presentations/papers/potential book(s?) on the subject of the inter-relation between the medieval sword and geometric proportions. That may well begin to answer the question of asking is the falchion's place in social structures, in military importance, and in active use, different to that of the knightly sword? Research will have to be taken to compare the existing samples to their contemporary double edged weapons to find potential associations; particularly valuable there will be the castillon falchion, where there is the association with the Castillon Type C double-edged swords which have been found to have plausible associations of geometric proportion. Is it the case that a falchion which has quite likely come from the same cutler's wokshop bears similar proportional geometry, or is it entirely different? That's a unique case of a control subject for both sides of the divide. That study will determine if there's any links between the theories Peter's putting forward, of connotations of the design of the medieval european sword as an extension of God's divinity, and the numerical symbolism popular among the educated medieval thinkers, and if that then links into the specific commentary by the likes of John of Salisbury, in "policraticus", where the phrases such as "His word is indeed a sharp two-edged sword" appear - not a sword, but a two-edged sword. Does this indicate the association of the single-edged sword with work that is not reighteous? There's a whole load of un-answered questions there just begging to be looked at. We already know that the falchion is often seen in the hands of the heretic, the blasphemer, the infidel, in medieval art - the falchion/scimitar weilding turk, the depiction of Goliath, the soldier in the Crucifixion. Can those connotations be not just a visual imagery for the artwork, but also a design consideration that may, to some extent give a possible explanation for the disparity between prevalence in art, and in the archaeological record? I dont know, yet.
Such studies must be done, and are as relevant as establishing a typology, or establishing a database of the actual mechanical properties of these weapons.

The more you dive into the single-edged european arms, the more the falchion becomes just one aspect, and the deeper the rabbit-hole becomes...

6th April 2012, 02:14 PM	#1
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	yes, Iam a friend of provenance I expect that every serious sword enthusiast is familiar with this sword, a beautiful pommel formed outof 3 pieces and a unique Oakeshott type XVIII, " type? castillon G-A hoard blade". The pommel is an absolutely beautiful work of art in itself with the legend Archiepiscopus and the arms of the cros family, possible to link direct to the cardinal/archbishop Pierre de Cros. the blade acts as a work of art not far behind. If I may speak freely and open , and I sincerely hope I did not kick somebody against the sore leg. If it would be in my possession, I would find out if the original pommel and original blade belong together or if it is later composed. (I have no idea how to investigate this though, probably we now do need the expert eye here which you refered to in your previous post.) Please do not get me wrong, it is only because the combination seems strange to me. The blade seems to me outof the castillon hoard and I only would expect another pommel, as the known ones , not so exceptionally beautiful and unique. best, Last edited by cornelistromp; 6th April 2012 at 07:26 PM.

11th October 2012, 05:56 PM	#7
J.G.Elmslie Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Inverness & Edinburgh, Scotland Posts: 17	Guilty as charged. I've been a bit lax in my research the last few months; been sidelined by historical consultancy work for a videogame company. It pays the bills... that said, I've generally come to a few conclusions, as the research has slowly progressed, and I've been fortunate enough to address design details with the likes of Peter Johnsson. I'm absolutely in agreement with (Mr?)Wardlaw, in regards to the hunting swords as well as messer. studying the falchion in isolation is futile, what's needed is the data on all the single-edged weapon forms of western europe - falchion, messer, the langes messer, the single-edged hangers, and the single-edged swords like the Bankside Sword now in the Royal Armouries. All of these are inter-related, not just in terms of the handling properties, but in their design, construction, and their methodologies of use and the relevance in terms of social structure. I'm steadily feeling that things like the messer were more popular in germanic regions as a result of cultural values, more than any practical difference in the weapons' performance, but also that their production was dictated by the different social structures, not so much the old trotted out idea of swords only being the property of certain social classes, but that sword production was the perogative of certain facets of the guilds, who each jealously guarded their niche markets, and in the case of cutlers and knife-blade makers, were actively wanting to muscle in on the economic markets that their similar skills could exploit. I also cant help but feel that the falchion, messer and single-edged sword must be addressed and studied in light of Peter Johnsson's superb presentations/papers/potential book(s?) on the subject of the inter-relation between the medieval sword and geometric proportions. That may well begin to answer the question of asking is the falchion's place in social structures, in military importance, and in active use, different to that of the knightly sword? Research will have to be taken to compare the existing samples to their contemporary double edged weapons to find potential associations; particularly valuable there will be the castillon falchion, where there is the association with the Castillon Type C double-edged swords which have been found to have plausible associations of geometric proportion. Is it the case that a falchion which has quite likely come from the same cutler's wokshop bears similar proportional geometry, or is it entirely different? That's a unique case of a control subject for both sides of the divide. That study will determine if there's any links between the theories Peter's putting forward, of connotations of the design of the medieval european sword as an extension of God's divinity, and the numerical symbolism popular among the educated medieval thinkers, and if that then links into the specific commentary by the likes of John of Salisbury, in "policraticus", where the phrases such as "His word is indeed a sharp two-edged sword" appear - not a sword, but a two-edged sword. Does this indicate the association of the single-edged sword with work that is not reighteous? There's a whole load of un-answered questions there just begging to be looked at. We already know that the falchion is often seen in the hands of the heretic, the blasphemer, the infidel, in medieval art - the falchion/scimitar weilding turk, the depiction of Goliath, the soldier in the Crucifixion. Can those connotations be not just a visual imagery for the artwork, but also a design consideration that may, to some extent give a possible explanation for the disparity between prevalence in art, and in the archaeological record? I dont know, yet. Such studies must be done, and are as relevant as establishing a typology, or establishing a database of the actual mechanical properties of these weapons. The more you dive into the single-edged european arms, the more the falchion becomes just one aspect, and the deeper the rabbit-hole becomes... Last edited by J.G.Elmslie; 11th October 2012 at 06:08 PM.

10th April 2012, 02:09 PM	#3
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	thanks, here we also agree. because the tang is relatively wide, it is likely that the pommel did not fit at once. Then somewhere material must have been removed, inside pommel or outside tang. if this is the case, it can be seen by the eye of an expert. The collecting colleague, is he skilled and his first name starts with an F? best,

11th October 2012, 09:54 AM	#4
wardlaw Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Somerset, UK Posts: 8	If you'll forgive the resurrection of a resting post! A fascinating discussion, thnaks to all for sharing the fruits of their research. The falchion is a weapon I am very interested in myself, and it is good to know that therre are more examples out there than I had hitherto known. What are peoples' thoughts about the link between the flachion and the messer?

11th October 2012, 10:33 AM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Welcome to the forum wardlaw . Always time for a resurrection . I hope you find it pleasant being with us.

11th October 2012, 01:37 PM	#6
wardlaw Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Somerset, UK Posts: 8	Thanks Fernando. I was going back over the thread and I see that J.G.Elmslie had already suggested a link between these blade forms. i am sure that he is right. I would also look at the hunting swords as another member of the family. Wiht regard to the image of St Peter from Cracow, I wonder if the archetype here might not be the cleaver-like knife from a hunting trousseau? The argument against that, of course, is the hilt form, which is clearly sword rather than knife. The synchronicity of three of us all working on aspects of falchions and messers is quite terrifying!