The Falchion or Malchus, the rarest medieval sword

J.G.Elmslie · 6th April 2012, 02:26 AM

Does anyone happen to have a copy of "European Arms and Armor of the XV-XIX Century from the William Randolph Hearst Collection"?

It might be a good starting point to start trying to ascertain when these were obtained by Hearst, and from where.
It seems that Hearst Castle's collections registrar is unable to assist, as apparently when the castle was donated to the state of california in 1957, no documentation of the items was included.

So all we know of thier provenance is that they are attributed to the Hearst collection, and predate 1957.
Hardly the most solid of foundations yet, alas.

Swordfish · 6th April 2012, 01:13 PM

For friends of provenance!

Here are two photos from an excavated sword (no Falchion), which speaks for its own provenance. It was sold some years ago by a London dealer. The sword is of the same type as the Castillon group A swords. It was also found in France. The disc pommel is enamelled and bears an inscripion and arms, which give us a name and a date. The arms are those of Pierre de Cros, Archbishop of Arles, and the sword can not date later than 1383, where he was appointed as a Cardinal.

Comments welcome!

Best

cornelistromp · 6th April 2012, 02:14 PM

yes, Iam a friend of provenance

I expect that every serious sword enthusiast is familiar with this sword, a beautiful pommel formed outof 3 pieces and a unique Oakeshott type XVIII, " type? castillon G-A hoard blade".
The pommel is an absolutely beautiful work of art in itself with the legend Archiepiscopus and the arms of the cros family, possible to link direct to the cardinal/archbishop Pierre de Cros. the blade acts as a work of art not far behind.

If I may speak freely and open , and I sincerely hope I did not kick somebody against the sore leg.
If it would be in my possession, I would find out if the original pommel and original blade belong together or if it is later composed.
(I have no idea how to investigate this though, probably we now do need the expert eye here which you refered to in your previous post.)
Please do not get me wrong, it is only because the combination seems strange to me.
The blade seems to me outof the castillon hoard and I only would expect another pommel, as the known ones , not so exceptionally beautiful and unique.

best,

Swordfish · 9th April 2012, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

yes, Iam a friend of provenance

I expect that every serious sword enthusiast is familiar with this sword, a beautiful pommel formed outof 3 pieces and a unique Oakeshott type XVIII, " type? castillon G-A hoard blade".
The pommel is an absolutely beautiful work of art in itself with the legend Archiepiscopus and the arms of the cros family, possible to link direct to the cardinal/archbishop Pierre de Cros. the blade acts as a work of art not far behind.

If I may speak freely and open , and I sincerely hope I did not kick somebody against the sore leg.
If it would be in my possession, I would find out if the original pommel and original blade belong together or if it is later composed.
(I have no idea how to investigate this though, probably we now do need the expert eye here which you refered to in your previous post.)
Please do not get me wrong, it is only because the combination seems strange to me.
The blade seems to me outof the castillon hoard and I only would expect another pommel, as the known ones , not so exceptionally beautiful and unique.

best,

Well observed !

The blade, cross and pommel are surely genuine, but do they belong together? In this case no scientific test can ever help you, only your eye can help you.

When I saw the photo for the first time, the first that struck me, were the unbalanced proportions. The pommel is too large for a single hand sword. The blade and the remains of the cross show a close resemblance to the Castillon swords, including the patination and the corroded spots. For a single hand sword of this type I would also expect a pommel of wheel type and a tang button.

Pierre de Cros was appointed as Archbishop of Arles in 1374. If we assume that the pommel was not made much later, we have a date of c.1375. If we further assume, that the sword was not the first of its type, but in fashion ab. ten or twenty years before, we have a date for this sword type c. 1355-1365.

The Castillon swords are generally dated c.1410-1450. Is it likely that half of the swords from Castillon were of a nearly one hundred years old type? I don`t think so. I believe that the pommel was assembled to a cheap Castillon sword, to increase its value. I therefore would never acquire this sword.

But an assumption is no proof. Under usual circumstances, it would not be possible to proof that the pommel was added later.

But contacts to other collectors are allways helpfull. A collecting colleague of me saw this pommel many years ago as a single item in an antigue shop in Italy. He did not acquired it, because it was too expensive. I fully trust this collector. Then this is the proof for me.

Best

cornelistromp · 10th April 2012, 02:09 PM

thanks, here we also agree.
because the tang is relatively wide, it is likely that the pommel did not fit at once.
Then somewhere material must have been removed, inside pommel or outside tang. if this is the case, it can be seen by the eye of an expert.

The collecting colleague, is he skilled and his first name starts with an F?

best,

wardlaw · 11th October 2012, 09:54 AM

If you'll forgive the resurrection of a resting post!

A fascinating discussion, thnaks to all for sharing the fruits of their research. The falchion is a weapon I am very interested in myself, and it is good to know that therre are more examples out there than I had hitherto known.

What are peoples' thoughts about the link between the flachion and the messer?

fernando · 11th October 2012, 10:33 AM

Welcome to the forum wardlaw

.
Always time for a resurrection

.
I hope you find it pleasant being with us.

cornelistromp · 9th April 2012, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J.G.Elmslie

Does anyone happen to have a copy of "European Arms and Armor of the XV-XIX Century from the William Randolph Hearst Collection"?

It might be a good starting point to start trying to ascertain when these were obtained by Hearst, and from where.
It seems that Hearst Castle's collections registrar is unable to assist, as apparently when the castle was donated to the state of california in 1957, no documentation of the items was included.

So all we know of thier provenance is that they are attributed to the Hearst collection, and predate 1957.
Hardly the most solid of foundations yet, alas.

@JG Elmslie
the catalog from 1952 I have somewhere, I'll search.
I also have the index of 1939 but unfortunately only the index.

@Swordfish
I am also very curious about falchion # 3, is here a little more known about it than just the collection of a capable collector. Do you know when he acquired it, auction? collection?
Can you please reveal something about it?

best,

6th April 2012, 01:13 PM	#2
Swordfish Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 129	For friends of provenance! Here are two photos from an excavated sword (no Falchion), which speaks for its own provenance. It was sold some years ago by a London dealer. The sword is of the same type as the Castillon group A swords. It was also found in France. The disc pommel is enamelled and bears an inscripion and arms, which give us a name and a date. The arms are those of Pierre de Cros, Archbishop of Arles, and the sword can not date later than 1383, where he was appointed as a Cardinal. Comments welcome! Best Attached Images

6th April 2012, 02:14 PM	#3
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	yes, Iam a friend of provenance I expect that every serious sword enthusiast is familiar with this sword, a beautiful pommel formed outof 3 pieces and a unique Oakeshott type XVIII, " type? castillon G-A hoard blade". The pommel is an absolutely beautiful work of art in itself with the legend Archiepiscopus and the arms of the cros family, possible to link direct to the cardinal/archbishop Pierre de Cros. the blade acts as a work of art not far behind. If I may speak freely and open , and I sincerely hope I did not kick somebody against the sore leg. If it would be in my possession, I would find out if the original pommel and original blade belong together or if it is later composed. (I have no idea how to investigate this though, probably we now do need the expert eye here which you refered to in your previous post.) Please do not get me wrong, it is only because the combination seems strange to me. The blade seems to me outof the castillon hoard and I only would expect another pommel, as the known ones , not so exceptionally beautiful and unique. best, Last edited by cornelistromp; 6th April 2012 at 07:26 PM.

6th April 2012, 02:26 AM	#1
J.G.Elmslie Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Inverness & Edinburgh, Scotland Posts: 17	Does anyone happen to have a copy of "European Arms and Armor of the XV-XIX Century from the William Randolph Hearst Collection"? It might be a good starting point to start trying to ascertain when these were obtained by Hearst, and from where. It seems that Hearst Castle's collections registrar is unable to assist, as apparently when the castle was donated to the state of california in 1957, no documentation of the items was included. So all we know of thier provenance is that they are attributed to the Hearst collection, and predate 1957. Hardly the most solid of foundations yet, alas.

10th April 2012, 02:09 PM	#5
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	thanks, here we also agree. because the tang is relatively wide, it is likely that the pommel did not fit at once. Then somewhere material must have been removed, inside pommel or outside tang. if this is the case, it can be seen by the eye of an expert. The collecting colleague, is he skilled and his first name starts with an F? best,

11th October 2012, 09:54 AM	#6
wardlaw Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Somerset, UK Posts: 8	If you'll forgive the resurrection of a resting post! A fascinating discussion, thnaks to all for sharing the fruits of their research. The falchion is a weapon I am very interested in myself, and it is good to know that therre are more examples out there than I had hitherto known. What are peoples' thoughts about the link between the flachion and the messer?

11th October 2012, 10:33 AM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Welcome to the forum wardlaw . Always time for a resurrection . I hope you find it pleasant being with us.