Damascus Saber for appreciation / Sable de Damasco para apreciación

spiral · 29th March 2012, 04:07 PM

Lovely German damascus, its Real

Spiral

fernando · 29th March 2012, 04:11 PM

I wonder why Jim doesn't have a say here ... for one.

Jim McDougall · 2nd April 2012, 08:23 PM

Fernando, thank you for the vote of confidence my friend!

Actually, I believe Spiral is correct and that there was a type of Damascus imitation going on by the latter 19th century. I think in Russia it was called 'bulat', but cant recall offhand (I think its discussed in Figiel, and some of the others). Solingen by the end of the 19th and well into the 20th was heavily supplying Mexico, Central and South America with edged weapons so this extremely handsome example is understandably well represented.
I prefer not to use the term 'fake' for this type of Damascus, as it is an example of European interpretation in thier efforts to produce this elusive and mysterious steel whose secrets were long hidden with the heritage of the Middle and Near East, Central Asia and India.

Fernando K · 3rd April 2012, 04:02 PM

Hola, Jim

Solamente pregunto porque el damasco no se vé en el fondo del dibujo con volutas o "scroll"; tampoco en el "recazo"

Afectuosamente. Fernando K

Hello, Jim

Only ask because the damask not go in the bottom of the drawing with scrolls or "scroll", nor in the "recazo"

Affectionately. Fernando K

spiral · 3rd April 2012, 05:01 PM

As far as I recall Jim Bulat is Russian made wootz? This steel appears laminated to me. Such things were not that unusul in Europe, although not always etched to bring out the pattern I believe.

Fernando K. the damascus pattern is only visible where acid has been used to show the layers in the steel, it would detract from the scrolling etc. if the was overshadowed by the steel pattern, so that was left polished.

Spiral

Fernando K · 3rd April 2012, 10:10 PM

Hola, Spiral:

Si el dibujo del "scroll" es un grabado al ácido, el fondo debería mostrar el dibujo del damasco. Yo no creo que se haya pulido el fondo tan bien, que se haya eliminado el dibujo o patron.

Queda asimismo el asunto del "recazo". Creo que si la hoja era de damasco, se destacaría el dibujo en una pàrte importante.

Tengo el catálogo de un a firma similar - Eichorn - de sables para todas partes del mundo - incluído Estados Unidos y Europa, y no hay un solo ejemplar de damasco.

Afectuosamente. Fernando K

Hello, Spiral:

If the the "scroll" pattern is an etching, the bottom should show the damascus pattern. I do not think the bottom has been polished so much that it removed the effect or pattern.

However the issue of "recazo" remains. I think if the blade were Damascus, the pattern would stand out in an important part.

I have the catalog of a signature similar to - Eichhorn - sabers for all parts of the world - including the United States and Europe, and there is no single damascus example.

Affectionately. Fernando K

broadaxe · 4th April 2012, 08:42 AM

Nice presentation saber, the steel appears to be legit pattern welded in original (past) etched condition. I've several, mostly can be dated to 1860-1880 era.
Bulat is the russian word for wootz, derived from Farsi - fulad. In its turn probably derived from the Hebrew word for steel plada.

29th March 2012, 04:07 PM	#1
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Lovely German damascus, its Real Spiral

29th March 2012, 04:11 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	I wonder why Jim doesn't have a say here ... for one.

2nd April 2012, 08:23 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Fernando, thank you for the vote of confidence my friend! Actually, I believe Spiral is correct and that there was a type of Damascus imitation going on by the latter 19th century. I think in Russia it was called 'bulat', but cant recall offhand (I think its discussed in Figiel, and some of the others). Solingen by the end of the 19th and well into the 20th was heavily supplying Mexico, Central and South America with edged weapons so this extremely handsome example is understandably well represented. I prefer not to use the term 'fake' for this type of Damascus, as it is an example of European interpretation in thier efforts to produce this elusive and mysterious steel whose secrets were long hidden with the heritage of the Middle and Near East, Central Asia and India.

3rd April 2012, 04:02 PM	#4
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 671	Hola, Jim Solamente pregunto porque el damasco no se vé en el fondo del dibujo con volutas o "scroll"; tampoco en el "recazo" Afectuosamente. Fernando K Hello, Jim Only ask because the damask not go in the bottom of the drawing with scrolls or "scroll", nor in the "recazo" Affectionately. Fernando K

3rd April 2012, 05:01 PM	#5
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	As far as I recall Jim Bulat is Russian made wootz? This steel appears laminated to me. Such things were not that unusul in Europe, although not always etched to bring out the pattern I believe. Fernando K. the damascus pattern is only visible where acid has been used to show the layers in the steel, it would detract from the scrolling etc. if the was overshadowed by the steel pattern, so that was left polished. Spiral

3rd April 2012, 10:10 PM	#6
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 671	Hola, Spiral: Si el dibujo del "scroll" es un grabado al ácido, el fondo debería mostrar el dibujo del damasco. Yo no creo que se haya pulido el fondo tan bien, que se haya eliminado el dibujo o patron. Queda asimismo el asunto del "recazo". Creo que si la hoja era de damasco, se destacaría el dibujo en una pàrte importante. Tengo el catálogo de un a firma similar - Eichorn - de sables para todas partes del mundo - incluído Estados Unidos y Europa, y no hay un solo ejemplar de damasco. Afectuosamente. Fernando K Hello, Spiral: If the the "scroll" pattern is an etching, the bottom should show the damascus pattern. I do not think the bottom has been polished so much that it removed the effect or pattern. However the issue of "recazo" remains. I think if the blade were Damascus, the pattern would stand out in an important part. I have the catalog of a signature similar to - Eichhorn - sabers for all parts of the world - including the United States and Europe, and there is no single damascus example. Affectionately. Fernando K

4th April 2012, 08:42 AM	#7
broadaxe Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 334	Nice presentation saber, the steel appears to be legit pattern welded in original (past) etched condition. I've several, mostly can be dated to 1860-1880 era. Bulat is the russian word for wootz, derived from Farsi - fulad. In its turn probably derived from the Hebrew word for steel plada.