Wootz Shamshir for Comments

ALEX · 26th March 2012, 11:40 AM

I also like the blade and wootz pattern.
I agree with RSWORD that it's an earlier blade. My only comment is that I do not see it as "earliy kilij form", if by "early" one meant pre-18th Century.
To me, this particular "yelman" looks more like a false edge, which could have been added/filed later. The "early" blades with yelmans of that form appear around 16th C, and this one does not look that old

I'd not call both swords A.alnakkas shows as Kilijes.

A.alnakkas · 26th March 2012, 01:21 PM

hey Alex,

excellent input. I have nothing more to add except that the shamshir's false edge is likely to be as early as the blade. The heat treatment also covers the false edge but could the heat treatment be done at a later time?

Lotfy

ALEX · 26th March 2012, 04:24 PM

Good observation, Lotfy. The heat treatment/hardening would not be made at a later time - highly unlikely without ruining wootz pattern. So better to accept the tempering is original, which is not as evident for the false edge. the question is: can heat treated edge be sharpened/reshaped at a later date while preserving the same color and contrast? I'd think the visually darker contrast would be throughout, not only surface based. so technically it can be. sorry for throwing it into the mix, as this is just a guess.

A.alnakkas · 27th March 2012, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

Good observation, Lotfy. The heat treatment/hardening would not be made at a later time - highly unlikely without ruining wootz pattern. So better to accept the tempering is original, which is not as evident for the false edge. the question is: can heat treated edge be sharpened/reshaped at a later date while preserving the same color and contrast? I'd think the visually darker contrast would be throughout, not only surface based. so technically it can be. sorry for throwing it into the mix, as this is just a guess.

Interesting. I think its more rational to think the false edge is original because it would make no sense for the smith to heat treat the dull part of the blade. And it just happens that the heat treatment ends where the false edge ends.

Any idea where such a hilt might be used? Am thinking Syria but certain features are not there..

ALEX · 27th March 2012, 02:58 PM

Lotfy, nice discussion - thank you. I agree about the false edge. It is likely of original design based on the heat treated pattern.
The hilt is not too specific to any particular region. It certainly could be Syrian, or any surrounding country:-)

ALEX · 27th March 2012, 06:34 PM

Here are some blades with similar "yelmans" (especially top two), attrubuted to 16, 17 and 18 Centuries. While the feature is similar, the taper, curvature and overall profile of Lotfy's blade is slightly different IMHO. As the difference of several centuries in evolution of the blade is not significant - I could be wrong:-)

A.alnakkas · 27th March 2012, 07:28 PM

Thanks ALEX for the valuable information. Yes, those blades do show similarity to mine. Could the difference be the result of years of sharpening on mine? There is no way to validly compare with a photo, so do you have a similar example?

As for the hilt, yeah it could be from anywhere :/ any examples of Iraqi hilts? Or maybe they are just like the Syrian or badawi ones.. These variations need a professional study!

27th March 2012, 06:34 PM	#6
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Here are some blades with similar "yelmans" (especially top two), attrubuted to 16, 17 and 18 Centuries. While the feature is similar, the taper, curvature and overall profile of Lotfy's blade is slightly different IMHO. As the difference of several centuries in evolution of the blade is not significant - I could be wrong:-) Attached Images

26th March 2012, 11:40 AM	#1
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	I also like the blade and wootz pattern. I agree with RSWORD that it's an earlier blade. My only comment is that I do not see it as "earliy kilij form", if by "early" one meant pre-18th Century. To me, this particular "yelman" looks more like a false edge, which could have been added/filed later. The "early" blades with yelmans of that form appear around 16th C, and this one does not look that old I'd not call both swords A.alnakkas shows as Kilijes.

26th March 2012, 01:21 PM	#2
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	hey Alex, excellent input. I have nothing more to add except that the shamshir's false edge is likely to be as early as the blade. The heat treatment also covers the false edge but could the heat treatment be done at a later time? Lotfy

26th March 2012, 04:24 PM	#3
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Good observation, Lotfy. The heat treatment/hardening would not be made at a later time - highly unlikely without ruining wootz pattern. So better to accept the tempering is original, which is not as evident for the false edge. the question is: can heat treated edge be sharpened/reshaped at a later date while preserving the same color and contrast? I'd think the visually darker contrast would be throughout, not only surface based. so technically it can be. sorry for throwing it into the mix, as this is just a guess.

27th March 2012, 02:58 PM	#5
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Lotfy, nice discussion - thank you. I agree about the false edge. It is likely of original design based on the heat treated pattern. The hilt is not too specific to any particular region. It certainly could be Syrian, or any surrounding country:-)

27th March 2012, 07:28 PM	#7
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	Thanks ALEX for the valuable information. Yes, those blades do show similarity to mine. Could the difference be the result of years of sharpening on mine? There is no way to validly compare with a photo, so do you have a similar example? As for the hilt, yeah it could be from anywhere :/ any examples of Iraqi hilts? Or maybe they are just like the Syrian or badawi ones.. These variations need a professional study!