Rare Mughal Dagger

Stan S. · 19th March 2012, 01:28 AM

Any chance fo seeing pictures of similar but confirmed mughal period weapons for comparison?

ALEX · 19th March 2012, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stan S.

Any chance fo seeing pictures of similar but confirmed mughal period weapons for comparison?

Here are few examples of kundan technique...

ALEX · 19th March 2012, 09:15 AM

And here's 18th century nephrite jade handle with all jewels and gold removed, so you can see the original carvings before they were filled with all that bling:-)

ALEX · 19th March 2012, 09:22 AM

also, 19th C mughal handle with some kundan applied much later, likely in 20th C.

ALEX · 19th March 2012, 09:45 AM

since we're on a mughal subject - here are few handles in most common mughal horse forms. Just like with new kundan - one thing is when you're looking superficially or on blury pictures, but when you start comparing with authentic mughal, the difference becomes much clearer.

Battara · 19th March 2012, 08:43 PM

Yes seeing examples of quality differences is invaluable.

Jens Nordlunde · 27th November 2015, 03:58 PM

Kundan is a very interesting subject, but few collectors know much about what it is. Some of the reasons could be, that good kundan work is rare, and so very expensive. Another reason could be, that on many of the hilts with gold and gems all of value have been removed and sold seperately.

I recently found somethingg interesting about kundan.
In Treasurers of the World. Jewelled Arts of India in the Age of the Mughals. The Al-Sabah Collection, Kuwait National Museum, the authors Manuel Keene and Salam Kaoukji on page 18 writes about the varieties in stone settings.
It says that kundan was invented, '...Probably in the centuries immediately preceding the birth of Christ...'
I never knew that the technique was that old – did you?

'Kundan, or hyper-purified gold, is beaten into narrow strips of foil and refined to the point at which it becomes ‘tacky’ to room temperature. At this degree of purity, it can actually form a molecular bond when pressure is applied to it by means of steel tools, which are first used to press the foil down around the stones, then to cut, shape and burnish it into any form that the artist may wish.... It can even be used on ivory and wood... There is no evidence that this technique was ever practised anywhere except in India.'
It is most interesting to read that the gold can form a molecular bond with several materials, as no glue would be needed to keep the gold in place, and the soft gold could easily be hammered down around the gem.
Alex, the hilt to the right in post 10 is not a horse, althought it could look like the head of a horse, it is a nilgai - notice the small horns.

Battara · 27th November 2015, 08:44 PM

Jens I read that too in that catalogue, but don't now anything more about kundan technique.

ariel · 29th November 2015, 02:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Alex, the hilt to the right in post 10 is not a horse, althought it could look like the head of a horse, it is a nilgai - notice the small horns.

Jens, these are not horns, these are true inward-turned ears: a specific feature of the so-called Marwari horse.

Atlantia · 19th March 2012, 09:27 AM

Excellent thread Alex.. Valuable information.

estcrh · 29th November 2015, 05:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stan S.

Any chance fo seeing pictures of similar but confirmed mughal period weapons for comparison?

Here are a few examples from the Met Museum.

Jens Nordlunde · 29th November 2015, 12:34 PM

Ariel, I still think the one to the right in post no 10 is a nilgai, just like the one shown in post 18. See the text here.
http://www.metmuseum.org/collection/...&tabname=label
Jens

estcrh · 29th November 2015, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Ariel, I still think the one to the right in post no 10 is a nilgai, just like the one shown in post 18. See the text here.
http://www.metmuseum.org/collection/...&tabname=label
Jens

The Blue Bull or the Nilgai (Boselaphus tragocamelus)

An antelope found only in India, the Blue Bull or the Nilgai is unlike antelope in its build. It has a body of horse, face of a cow with high withers and low rump.

Nilgai is found only in India from the foothills of Himalayas to the forest of Karnataka and from the dry forest of Rajasthan to the forest of West Bengal and Assam.

Shakethetrees · 29th November 2015, 04:33 PM

There's a lot of supposition re: this technique. One of the offsite posts got it right, though.

I think part of the problem is the use of translating software or not being fluent in the technical aspects of either or both languages.

Gold will NOT form a molecular bond with stone. And, for the purposes of this discussion, gold, if hammered onto another piece of gold of a similar karat, will not form a molecular bond between the two pieces. Any attachment would be purely mechanical. Think of two pieces of aluminum foil. Crumble them up together in a random, haphazard manner as when you're not thinking about it when you throw it away. The two pieces are pretty securely held together if squished together tightly. However if you very methodically, for whatever reason, decide you need to separate the two pieces, this can be done. Try it.

This is a mechanical bond. If a eutectic bond formed, there would be no separating the two.

A design is engraved into the hard stone object. The walls of the design are next undercut slightly.

The stones to be set must also have slightly sloping sides as all stones that are set have to have.

Gold, now cannot be "hyper purified". Period. Pure gold is 24 karat. There is no 24.5 or 25 karat.

Strips of 24 karat gold are drawn that have a rectangular cross section, the minor dimension should fill tightly the space between the precious stone and the matrix. The major dimension should stand proud approximately twice to three times the thickness of the minor dimension, leaving as small a gap where the two ends meet as possible. It is critical for these strips be annealed well. During the process used in the following paragraph the strips will become slightly springy due to work-hardening. The trick is to get everything in place as efficiently as possible and not to over work.

A steel chasing tool, which is similar to a small chisel but with a blunt rounded edge, is pressed to the gold and driven down with gentle blows of a light hammer. OR a tool known as a burnisher, which is a smooth, polished shape made from steel, agate, or haematite mounted securely in a wooden handle, is pressed forcibly downward causing the gold strip to deform and be forced to fill any undercuts and voids between the precious stone being inlaid and the design carved into the grip. The slight extra amount of gold that was left standing proud originally should roughly be figured to be slightly greater than the volume of the void. If during the process this is miscalculated, unless there's enough of an undercut, more gold cannot be just hammered on top of the gold in place to build it up. There has to be some undercuts to mechanically lock everything together.

One respondent mentions a eutectic bond forming without heat.

Nonsense.

Period.

Any bonding forming during this process is purely mechanical and can be easily undone with a pair of pliers, tweezers, or needles to remove the set stones.

With a bit of prep time and a clear schedule, this could be demonstrated.

Jens Nordlunde · 29th November 2015, 04:52 PM

Shakethetrees,
Thank you very much for the explanation, which I find very interesting.
If I understand you correctly, you are saying, that the jade or whatever, is 'scratched' like in 'koftgari', and that is what is holding the gold/stone in place. Is that correct?
If it is, then it is a bit like when the enamelleded. I have a very good example of this somewhere.
Jens

Shakethetrees · 29th November 2015, 07:52 PM

Jens, thank you for your comment.

The decoration is not just "scratched" into the jade or other hard stone, but it to depth needed to allow the stone, once set, to be at the proper relative height to the hard stone matrix.

Once the linear aspects of the design and the larger cuts intended to support the set stones are finished, the edges are undercut slightly.

Once the 24K annealed gold is forced down, filling the undercuts, it's locked in by burnishing or chasing lightly.

19th March 2012, 09:15 AM	#3
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	And here's 18th century nephrite jade handle with all jewels and gold removed, so you can see the original carvings before they were filled with all that bling:-) Attached Images

19th March 2012, 09:22 AM	#4
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	also, 19th C mughal handle with some kundan applied much later, likely in 20th C. Attached Images

19th March 2012, 09:45 AM	#5
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Mughal handle comparison since we're on a mughal subject - here are few handles in most common mughal horse forms. Just like with new kundan - one thing is when you're looking superficially or on blury pictures, but when you start comparing with authentic mughal, the difference becomes much clearer. Attached Images

27th November 2015, 03:58 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Kundan is a very interesting subject, but few collectors know much about what it is. Some of the reasons could be, that good kundan work is rare, and so very expensive. Another reason could be, that on many of the hilts with gold and gems all of value have been removed and sold seperately. I recently found somethingg interesting about kundan. In Treasurers of the World. Jewelled Arts of India in the Age of the Mughals. The Al-Sabah Collection, Kuwait National Museum, the authors Manuel Keene and Salam Kaoukji on page 18 writes about the varieties in stone settings. It says that kundan was invented, '...Probably in the centuries immediately preceding the birth of Christ...' I never knew that the technique was that old – did you? 'Kundan, or hyper-purified gold, is beaten into narrow strips of foil and refined to the point at which it becomes ‘tacky’ to room temperature. At this degree of purity, it can actually form a molecular bond when pressure is applied to it by means of steel tools, which are first used to press the foil down around the stones, then to cut, shape and burnish it into any form that the artist may wish.... It can even be used on ivory and wood... There is no evidence that this technique was ever practised anywhere except in India.' It is most interesting to read that the gold can form a molecular bond with several materials, as no glue would be needed to keep the gold in place, and the soft gold could easily be hammered down around the gem. Alex, the hilt to the right in post 10 is not a horse, althought it could look like the head of a horse, it is a nilgai - notice the small horns. Last edited by Jens Nordlunde; 27th November 2015 at 04:48 PM.

19th March 2012, 01:28 AM	#1
Stan S. Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Brooklyn, NY USA Posts: 227	Any chance fo seeing pictures of similar but confirmed mughal period weapons for comparison?

19th March 2012, 08:43 PM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,308	Yes seeing examples of quality differences is invaluable.

27th November 2015, 08:44 PM	#8
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,308	Jens I read that too in that catalogue, but don't now anything more about kundan technique.

19th March 2012, 09:27 AM	#10
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Excellent thread Alex.. Valuable information.

29th November 2015, 12:34 PM	#12
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Ariel, I still think the one to the right in post no 10 is a nilgai, just like the one shown in post 18. See the text here. http://www.metmuseum.org/collection/...&tabname=label Jens

29th November 2015, 04:33 PM	#14
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	There's a lot of supposition re: this technique. One of the offsite posts got it right, though. I think part of the problem is the use of translating software or not being fluent in the technical aspects of either or both languages. Gold will NOT form a molecular bond with stone. And, for the purposes of this discussion, gold, if hammered onto another piece of gold of a similar karat, will not form a molecular bond between the two pieces. Any attachment would be purely mechanical. Think of two pieces of aluminum foil. Crumble them up together in a random, haphazard manner as when you're not thinking about it when you throw it away. The two pieces are pretty securely held together if squished together tightly. However if you very methodically, for whatever reason, decide you need to separate the two pieces, this can be done. Try it. This is a mechanical bond. If a eutectic bond formed, there would be no separating the two. A design is engraved into the hard stone object. The walls of the design are next undercut slightly. The stones to be set must also have slightly sloping sides as all stones that are set have to have. Gold, now cannot be "hyper purified". Period. Pure gold is 24 karat. There is no 24.5 or 25 karat. Strips of 24 karat gold are drawn that have a rectangular cross section, the minor dimension should fill tightly the space between the precious stone and the matrix. The major dimension should stand proud approximately twice to three times the thickness of the minor dimension, leaving as small a gap where the two ends meet as possible. It is critical for these strips be annealed well. During the process used in the following paragraph the strips will become slightly springy due to work-hardening. The trick is to get everything in place as efficiently as possible and not to over work. A steel chasing tool, which is similar to a small chisel but with a blunt rounded edge, is pressed to the gold and driven down with gentle blows of a light hammer. OR a tool known as a burnisher, which is a smooth, polished shape made from steel, agate, or haematite mounted securely in a wooden handle, is pressed forcibly downward causing the gold strip to deform and be forced to fill any undercuts and voids between the precious stone being inlaid and the design carved into the grip. The slight extra amount of gold that was left standing proud originally should roughly be figured to be slightly greater than the volume of the void. If during the process this is miscalculated, unless there's enough of an undercut, more gold cannot be just hammered on top of the gold in place to build it up. There has to be some undercuts to mechanically lock everything together. One respondent mentions a eutectic bond forming without heat. Nonsense. Period. Any bonding forming during this process is purely mechanical and can be easily undone with a pair of pliers, tweezers, or needles to remove the set stones. With a bit of prep time and a clear schedule, this could be demonstrated.

29th November 2015, 04:52 PM	#15
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Shakethetrees, Thank you very much for the explanation, which I find very interesting. If I understand you correctly, you are saying, that the jade or whatever, is 'scratched' like in 'koftgari', and that is what is holding the gold/stone in place. Is that correct? If it is, then it is a bit like when the enamelleded. I have a very good example of this somewhere. Jens

29th November 2015, 07:52 PM	#16
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	Jens, thank you for your comment. The decoration is not just "scratched" into the jade or other hard stone, but it to depth needed to allow the stone, once set, to be at the proper relative height to the hard stone matrix. Once the linear aspects of the design and the larger cuts intended to support the set stones are finished, the edges are undercut slightly. Once the 24K annealed gold is forced down, filling the undercuts, it's locked in by burnishing or chasing lightly.