Unusual curved naval dirk for ID

Atlantia · 10th March 2012, 02:16 PM

Not seen one like this before, possibly eastern, presumably one of the retailer/outfitter sold pieces for dress occasions?
Condition isn't perfect but all parts appear to be original. Strange shaped guard isn't broken, just has a strange 'quarter' knuckle bow.
No markings apart from the cast emblem on the guard.
Any thoughts?

Atlantia · 11th March 2012, 06:00 PM

Everybody Stumped?

colin henshaw · 11th March 2012, 06:31 PM

Not my area really - but the sheath looks odd, isn't that type of drag to the end for a much longer sword ?

Looks a bit made up to my uneducated eye, or could it be a type of "society" sword ?

Regards.

kronckew · 11th March 2012, 09:20 PM

looks vaguely french imperial to me. young midshipmans private purchase?

scabbard looks incomplete, leather/wood lining missing? throat also.

Atlantia · 12th March 2012, 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colin henshaw

Not my area really - but the sheath looks odd, isn't that type of drag to the end for a much longer sword ?

Looks a bit made up to my uneducated eye, or could it be a type of "society" sword ?

Regards.

Hi Colin,

Thanks for the input. I hadn't thought society I must say.
However, although the type is unfamiliar the general shape and 'elements' all say naval dirk to me.

Best
Gene

Atlantia · 12th March 2012, 12:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

looks vaguely french imperial to me. young midshipmans private purchase?

scabbard looks incomplete, leather/wood lining missing? throat also.

Hi mate,
Scabbard is also missing one suspension loop and mount.
I thought private purchase. Hopefully someone will recognise it. French would be good.
Best
Gene

Atlantia · 12th March 2012, 01:06 AM

Did other nations use the lion motif on Dirks?
Anyone recognise the laurels and flags?

Atlantia · 13th March 2012, 11:27 PM

Surely someone recognises it?

M ELEY · 15th March 2012, 03:25 AM

IMHO, I think this sword has a damaged and repaired hilt. Even though it appears that the guard was made that way, I think it was broken long ago and left as is with the remaining guard as such. I've seen this hilt form before and it would have a reverse P type knuckle bow. The pommel appears to be a replacement. Not so sure about the guard. The blade looks good/original. I don't recognize the emblem, but cast brass emblems of this type found on all sorts of early-mid 19th c. blades, which I believe yours is. I don't think this one was dress/fraternal, but a re-worked piece. Because the repair was done contemporary with its use, I could see that this might have been a side-knife. If it's naval (?), I'm not familiar with the form per say. It would have to be a merchant/private purchase/put-together side arm for a sailor...

templarnight · 26th March 2012, 09:16 PM

I saw this Sword, and its a made up piece of parts.

Cathey · 26th March 2012, 10:49 PM

My two cents worth i think the scabbard was from a sword and cut down to suit
Cheers Rex

Atlantia · 26th March 2012, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by templarnight

I saw this Sword, and its a made up piece of parts.

Hi Patrick

It doesn't appear to be, can you provide some evidence of the origins of these 'parts'?

Regards
Gene

Atlantia · 26th March 2012, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathey

My two cents worth i think the scabbard was from a sword and cut down to suit
Cheers Rex

The two suspension points show that the scabbard although damaged is original size and shape. It's not a cut down for sure.

Best
Gene

Atlantia · 26th March 2012, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

IMHO, I think this sword has a damaged and repaired hilt. Even though it appears that the guard was made that way, I think it was broken long ago and left as is with the remaining guard as such. I've seen this hilt form before and it would have a reverse P type knuckle bow. The pommel appears to be a replacement. Not so sure about the guard. The blade looks good/original. I don't recognize the emblem, but cast brass emblems of this type found on all sorts of early-mid 19th c. blades, which I believe yours is. I don't think this one was dress/fraternal, but a re-worked piece. Because the repair was done contemporary with its use, I could see that this might have been a side-knife. If it's naval (?), I'm not familiar with the form per say. It would have to be a merchant/private purchase/put-together side arm for a sailor...

I honestly don't know. Can you find any pics?
Anythings possible, it's an oddity for sure.

Here's a shot to show the size with an 1845 for scale.

Best
Gene

templarnight · 27th March 2012, 11:10 PM

Hi Eugene

No Im afraid I cant provide any reference, but then I guess that seems to be the problem with it.

I would have thought that the Grip would have had a Ferrule which leads me to think its not for this Sword.

The overall look of it made me to think it was a marriage when I examined it before you acquired it.

However its only my opinion, hopefully someone will be able to pin it down with a bit of luck.

Atlantia · 28th March 2012, 02:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by templarnight

Hi Eugene

No Im afraid I cant provide any reference, but then I guess that seems to be the problem with it.

I would have thought that the Grip would have had a Ferrule which leads me to think its not for this Sword.

The overall look of it made me to think it was a marriage when I examined it before you acquired it.

However its only my opinion, hopefully someone will be able to pin it down with a bit of luck.

Hi Patrick,

That's a relief, your previous post made it sound like you knew something.
I'm in agreement with John on this one, a continental dirk sold by an outfitter.
Not 100% about the pommel, but the rest seems fine to me.
I agree that someone is bound to recognise it.... just a matter of being patient I guess.

Regards
Gene

10th March 2012, 02:16 PM	#1
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Unusual curved naval dirk for ID Not seen one like this before, possibly eastern, presumably one of the retailer/outfitter sold pieces for dress occasions? Condition isn't perfect but all parts appear to be original. Strange shaped guard isn't broken, just has a strange 'quarter' knuckle bow. No markings apart from the cast emblem on the guard. Any thoughts? Attached Images

12th March 2012, 01:06 AM	#7
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Did other nations use the lion motif on Dirks? Anyone recognise the laurels and flags? Attached Images

11th March 2012, 06:00 PM	#2
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Everybody Stumped?

11th March 2012, 06:31 PM	#3
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,429	Not my area really - but the sheath looks odd, isn't that type of drag to the end for a much longer sword ? Looks a bit made up to my uneducated eye, or could it be a type of "society" sword ? Regards.

11th March 2012, 09:20 PM	#4
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,259	looks vaguely french imperial to me. young midshipmans private purchase? scabbard looks incomplete, leather/wood lining missing? throat also.

13th March 2012, 11:27 PM	#8
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Surely someone recognises it?

15th March 2012, 03:25 AM	#9
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,206	IMHO, I think this sword has a damaged and repaired hilt. Even though it appears that the guard was made that way, I think it was broken long ago and left as is with the remaining guard as such. I've seen this hilt form before and it would have a reverse P type knuckle bow. The pommel appears to be a replacement. Not so sure about the guard. The blade looks good/original. I don't recognize the emblem, but cast brass emblems of this type found on all sorts of early-mid 19th c. blades, which I believe yours is. I don't think this one was dress/fraternal, but a re-worked piece. Because the repair was done contemporary with its use, I could see that this might have been a side-knife. If it's naval (?), I'm not familiar with the form per say. It would have to be a merchant/private purchase/put-together side arm for a sailor...

26th March 2012, 09:16 PM	#10
templarnight Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 87	I saw this Sword, and its a made up piece of parts.

26th March 2012, 10:49 PM	#11
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	My two cents worth i think the scabbard was from a sword and cut down to suit Cheers Rex

27th March 2012, 11:10 PM	#15
templarnight Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 87	Hi Eugene No Im afraid I cant provide any reference, but then I guess that seems to be the problem with it. I would have thought that the Grip would have had a Ferrule which leads me to think its not for this Sword. The overall look of it made me to think it was a marriage when I examined it before you acquired it. However its only my opinion, hopefully someone will be able to pin it down with a bit of luck.