Kattara for comments

[A.alnakkas]

""Salaams ~ The documentary evidence contained in the National Herritage Document, The Craft Herritage of Oman at page 220, 222, 454 and 455 and in the National Museum of Muscat and in the National Museum at Al Ain in the UAE. Supporting detailed and qualifying evidence is contained at this thread in most of the 250 posts.""

I may have missed it, but dont remember anything about straight saifs being dance only from a museum? as far as I remember, you came up with this idea when you saw an ethiopian blade being "rehilted"

""You confuse long hilt quillonless curved Omani Swords with other countries combat weapons. You may not believe this but This is simply not the case in Oman. Museum reference refers.""

Your point about the quillons has nothing to do with countries. You deemed the saif not a combat weapon due to "being quillonless" and not due to being Omani. This is, as proven by alot of evidence to be nothing but hot air at best.

""With respect; the introduction by you of our Moderator Jim McDougalls name is a very unsatisfactory development, since, on this forum people do not "tend" to make up their minds during a thread process, moreover, they are free to comment, guide and steer and in the final analysis, may sway one way or the other... or remain unbiased.""

So citing that one of our most experienced members is in an agreement with me is a bad thing now?

Here is a quote from JM:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I also wanted to add some of my own perceptions thus far concerning the overall kattara discussions and for purpose of this thread, the sword in discussion.
I think this is a reasonably recently mounted, as noted, blade which to me resembles those which were prevalent in the trade into Red Sea and North Africa. It is of a 19thc. form usually associated with Solingen and found on many kaskara, and these seem to have been produced as 'blanks' for the purpose of export to these regions. In North Africa many were embellished with native versions of markings which had become prevalent, often from interpretations of earlier European markings. It would seem in this case, since the blade ended up in Omani context, the markings added would be of course with key forms important there.

I am not certain that I am as concerned with much of the terminology issues as clearly in most ethnographic weapons, these can be debated ad infinitum due to many variations, semantics, transliterations etc. Many of these weapons have come to be known by generally held collectors terms and colloquially described names, which in my opinion are probably easier to adhere to in discussions. Despite this case, it is of course best in my opinion to qualify descriptions, for example with the Moroccan 'nimcha' I usually call it the Moroccan sa'if commonly termed 'nimcha'. The 'hawkshead' denominator for these Arabian swords with karabela style hilts brought to our attention by Ibrahiim is intriguing and I had not been aware of that term. Here again, the 'karabela' is a hilt style associated with Turkey and East Europe, but has often been applied to certain sabres overall. Here the term 'hawkshead' becomes specific for an Arabian sabre with karabela style hilt.

As far as 'dancing' swords, I do believe that swords used are of the 'types' used in the context of general use whether combat or ceremonial, and am somewhat unconvinced that these would be made exclusively for these events. The 'Highland sword dance' is of course one example which typically uses the traditional basket hilt sword, many of which while having become ceremonially worn are actually quite capable of combat use. I have seen videos shared by a Beja tribesman of 'dances' using kaskara in Eritrea where these swords were fully combat ready. The 'duels' in Khevsuria use straight bladed 'pranguli' and are staged combat portrayal, yet the same swords can and have been used in actual duels with the expected result.

In my opinion, the cylindrical hilt of the Omani 'kattara' or straight bladed sa'if is fully capable of combat use, as well as for dancing events. In the sword we see here, the hilt is wrapped in leather, an often seen application in combat swords used through Arabia and by Bedouin into Sinai regions as well as certainly many other regional possibilities. It is important to note that flexibility is important in combat blades in order to properly absorb impact and transference of energy is an important dynamic. If too rigid the blade will break, and there are many deadly blades which can flex up to 90 degrees (the 'urumi' of North Malabar in Kerala, India is one extreme example). In blades of the crusades one key factor noted, and I have handled one of these, is the thinness and flexibility of the blade. With regard to the spatulated or rounded tips, this feature is commonly seen on straight swords which are used primarily in slashing cuts and is well known on many European sword blades. These rounded tips are also of course key to the Saharan takouba broadswords, where slashing cuts are preferred.

Regarding the spike on the hilts of some of these Omani sa'if, it is my opinion, as discussed over a year ago, that this conical pommel may allude to architectural renderings such as the top of the minaret. It is well established that many features incorporated into various hilts reflect important architectural elements especially of Mosques and temples, and the tulwar hilt actually is believed to reflect the stupa. I do not believe that the 'spike' shape would be effective in combat, and these features have often had these suggestions, for example the spiked Prussian 'pickelhaube' helmets of WWI, which has never been proven used as such. It is known however that 'pommeling' or striking with the sword pommel does occur, but not enought for this feature to be spiked for such purpose.

While those observations admittedly deviate in degree, I return to noting that Brian's kattara is certainly a solid example of a Red Sea blade probably from Germany and marked with talismanically oriented images. With this I would say it was likely intended for tribal wear, and would have served in combat if required, however as in most cases, these were worn as elements of tribal costume and not necessarily battle weapons, nor specifically for the ceremonial events.

I do understand that the sound making and vibration of the blade was key in the alyaalha, and that there may well have been blades made in Oman to accentuate that feature. In this case, swords with these blades may well have existed contemporarily to these straight kattara, but I am not certain that they can necessarily be classed separately.

It can be found here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15113 (Post 21)

Regardless, I rest my case, because you, my good friend Ibrahim so far have been repeating your assumptions without any effort in deconstructing my replies. You also have engaged in fallacies and misrepresenting reality when you refered to Swords as knives to support your case.

Keep in mind that I have absolutely nothing to lose or gain with Straight saifs being whatever they are but the evidence to support your conclusion was less then weak, it was ridiculous

[Jim McDougall]

I would like to clarify something here......my last post as I indicated at the beginning of its text, were 'my own perceptions' concerning various elements of our'discussion. The very reason it was not addressed to any specific participant is that is was its clear intent, to state my own positions, not anyone elses. I emphatically resent the implication that I favor any party in, or do I want any part of personality charged debate between members. Here I will also emphatically note that these discussions will leave out personal issues between members and hold to presenting information or opinions and observations without unnecessary comments or remarks.
We are better than this guys, and we are here to advance knowledge..it is not a contest.

This thread has been an excellent foray into the deeply clouded history of these fascinating swords, and I very much respect the field work being undertaken by Ibrahiim in Oman, as well as the cultural knowledge held by Lofty who is situated in Kuwait. I have learned a great deal thus far in these proceedings as I have been inspired to dig deeper into my own notes and resources augmented by the great information presented by them and others who have participated here.
As has been noted, myself as well as other forum members do respond to material presented and well supported and the very purpose of our discussions which indeed does often result in changes of opinion and revised data.

I think that the idea of dance swords being separate from combat swords is of course quite likely in modern times and with the well known production of swords for the souvenier markets. However, I believe that swords of the classification 'kattara' as generally held in term, but as we have determined are often called by the collective term sa'if, were in earlier times capable of the dynamics used in both combat and dance.

In "Arms and Armour of Arabia" (Robert Elgood, 1994, p.16), he notes, citing J.R.Wellstead ("Travels in Arabia", 1838) large groups of men performing the war dance, and they parry neither with sword nor shield but avoid blows by leaping or bounding backwards. The blade of thier sword is three feet in length, straight, thin, double edged and as sharp as a razor. As they carry it upright before them, by a peculiar motion of thier wrist they cause it to vibrate in a vary singular manner, which has a singularly striking effect when they are assembled in any considerable number.

Op.cit.p.16, the author James Fraser ("Narrative of a Journey into Khorasan in the Years 1821 and 1822", repr Delhi, 1984) cites a visit to the Omani garrison at Ormuz. The troops had a broadsword and target similar to those of Highlanders, ..."some made in Yemen, but greater part are procured from Egypt, whither they are brought from different parts of the Meditteranean. Many are seen with the Solingen mark, many with Andrea Ferrara marks.
These swords are sharp and thin and previous to making use of them in attack, they make them quiver and ring in the hand with a jerk, while held in an upright position and then charge with loud shouts".

Here I would point out that the swords from Egypt are likely those used in kaskara and takouba variably, and from my understanding many of these blades are remarkably flexible. I think that the degree of vibration with different blades of course may cause variation in the effects audibly, but the larger number would be capable of the desired vibratory effect somewhat.
In Elgood (fig. 2.16) a 'long hilt' Omani sa'if is shown and noted to have a locally produced blade of 18th-19th c. which strongly resembles the German type imports.

On p.33 (op.cit.) author B.Thomas ("Arabia Felix" , 1938) notes that "...the Omani use thier swords in tribal dancing and make the blade quiver. The so called 'halab' blades are best for this".
It is further noted in this reference that the author attended the Razif in Doha, Qatar held to celebrate victory in Gulf war and noticed many tribes from other areas of Arabia did the same.

I think that it would be productive to continue the discussion using these reference notes as observed and cited by the respected arms author and historian Robert Elgood along with the material assembled thus far, and perhaps look into further descriptions of the noted 'halab' type blade.

Lets take this thread to its full potential in establishing the history, development and understanding of these important swords and leave behind the unnecessary positioning OK guys?

Thank you so much, and with respect,
Jim

[A.alnakkas]

Hello Guys,

I just wanted to say that when I quoted Jim I had no intention of making any sort of positioning. To me, it was like quoting a book or any other external source. As Jim's knowledge far preceed many of us! so I apologize if I came out that way and.. Maybe this would push Jim to write a book so we can quote him all we want! :-)

Imho, this discussion is a positive one and we should be open to any possibility that evidence points to. After all, I think many of us collect these items as works of art regardless of their original purpose.

Thanks for the quotes Jim, I think this evidence would support that straight saif is a combat weapon.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams Jim, Your advice and points of detail are respected and in particular upon the final instructions to get on with the research. I was particularly interested in the Hormuz and other visitors to Oman. I posted on# 164 a precis of such visitors activity viz

1.In 1878 a Mr Geary (editor of the Times of India) visited Muscat and wrote of the weapons he saw carried by locals ~ A favourite weapon is a straight broad two-handed sword, the sweep of which would take off a man's thigh or even cut him in two at the waist.The swordsmen carried over their shoulder small shields of rhinoceros horn 8 or 9 inches in diameter....

2.Captain James Welstead in 1835 at Jalaan Bani Bu Ali (on the Eastern edge of the Wahaybah) remarked on the Funoon, Razha, sword parade and dance that the blades of their swords are 3 feet in length, straight, thin, double edged and as sharp as a razor.

3.Mr Frazer who also visited Hormuz in 1821 (and Oman at the same time as Welstead in about 1835) described The Omani Garrison at Hormuz swords as similar to Scotish Broadswords and also described separately in Oman later the Ters buckler shields..

It is, however, those visitors remarks ( At para 1 and 2 above) that part cloud the issue since they were on scene for perhaps minutes or hours as onlookers rather than fully focussed on precise research on the subject of this dancing sword. In the case of the other (At para 3) could it be that he was viewing the Omani Short Battle Sword since it too looks like a Scotish Broadsword to the untrained eye and in the hands of quite physically small Omani men ? It is also possible that both visitors (1 and 3) were looking at the Old Battle Sword or the dancing sword~ it is not clear. It is however placed as a reference.

Co-incidentally I was researching a book detail last night and reccommend to Forum Ian Skeets Oman Before 1970. The End of an Era. (actually a rewrite of Muscat and Oman which was a far better tittle as it describes in 3 words the immense difference between the Coastal belt Omanis and the Interior Omanis in history.

This is a masterful work full of incredible detail and with an eye on the virtually mediaeval state of the country only about 50 years ago with anecdotes on its ancient history quite new to me. He very much is aware of the mythical nature of Oman and the fables and pure storytelling that has gone on down the ages.

In one such story an amazing fact has surfaced concerning the Saif Yamaani (The Old Omani Battle Sword) and its possible manufacturing base.

In Omani History there is a story about Malik bin Fahm the founder of Oman who originally lived in Yemen. One day one of the tribesmen complained that one of Maliks men had killed his dog. Malik was mortified and complained that this was an outragious insult and that he would leave the country immediately~ and joined by a large party of his followers he duly did... East to Oman. A fanciful reason to leave notes the author however that the likely reason in fact was the collapse of the Mehrab dam. In truth the dam did burst however more gradually than is imagined and could have taken 300 years to finally become useless...There may well have been a large early exodus and at the same time a gradual follow on..over 3 centuries. Dog or no dog Malik left "in what they say" was the second century a.d. On arrival near Nizwa Malik became aware that the Persians were centred in Sohar and other garrisons and wrote to the Marzaban(Persian Governor) giving him notice of his intent to settle in Oman and if he didn't like the idea they would have a battle... To cut a long story short there were several battles in which the Persians were completely routed elephants 40,000 men and all..after which the Omanis settled on a happy ever after note and Malik lived til he was 120.

His spirit is alive in that region today and people of the Azdite or Yemeni tribes will swear he was their great great grandfather in a bewildering mathematical exercise depending on their imagination... however, that is not important... Malik is.

He was decended from the Azd tribe as part of the Qahtan line of Arab ancestry tribes usually referred to as Yemeni in that they settled in Yemen. The other line from Adnan originally settled in northern Arabia and referred to as Nizari. Both lines settled in Oman; Malik bin Fahms Yemeni Azdites being one of the settlements in that line. As timelines go that puts us somewhere in the mid 2nd century to the mid 4th allowing for myth and legend and history mixed...So what does this have to do with swords...?

Near Nizwa, the often capital of the Interior, and later seat of Ibadiism, and a production area for copper and iron objects where the bellows was an early discovery in furnace production, is a small town called Izki; one of the oldest Omani towns. One of its quarters is called Yemen. Another is called Nizar even to this day. Each belongs to the direct decendant tribe Beni Ruwaha and Beni Riyam; Qahtani and Nizari direct decendants !

Later the Omanis rose up under Immam Julanda against the Iraqi garrisons subjugating the country in about 751 a.d. that the weapons they used were called Sayf Yamaani The Old Omani Battle Swords. It is postulated that they were made not in The Yemen but near Nizwa at Izki in the quarter called Yemen. Research in that direction is ongoing.

I further submit that the reference book Oman before 1970 The End of an Era, by Ian Skeet, be logged with research and for bibliography.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

Gentlemen thank you so much for your understanding and agreement that the discussion itself here is paramount and must be carried forward most productively without polarities. Thank you very much for the kind words Lofty, however my 'knowledge' is simply a compendium of that of others which is gathered over the time I spend in researching in order to write here. As I haved noted, I learn from the valuable input of members here and assemble material and observations collectively to form my own perspectives, which can and often will readjust according to degrees of plausibility with information at hand.

The quotes I provided are of course compelling in suggesting that the straight sa'if commonly termed in most references the 'kattara' has indeed been a combat weapon in its well established configuration. The reason I placed these references is that in the study of arms, as I was once told, a writers responsibility is to present not only his views in supporting his theories or thesis, but those opposing as well in order for the reader to properly evaluate the material.

As Ibrahiim has well pointed out, these venerable narratives may have been impressions perceived in less than optimum circumstances for establishing broadly based opinions or observations. While they offer the implications that these swords had blades which did indeed vibrate in accord with the dynamics of the war dance as well as serve in combat, the comments concerning the nature of them only vaguely suggests that imported trade blades were among the weapons seen, not necessarily all of them.

I would however note here in the comments by Mr. Fraser suggesting the comparison of the Omani swords to those of the Scottish Highlander would seem to be to be referring to the baskethilt broadsword, but I believe the comments were directed to the blade, and of course not the hilt. What I believe was meant was that the appearance of the blades in thier profile, size and even in many of the markings on them pointed toward thier being like those produced in Germany for the Scottish swords. Mr. Fraser clearly was familiar with Scottish broadswords as his mention of the 'Andrea Ferrara' marking was a specific not commonly known in general parlance concerning these swords beyond those who had actually seen and handled them.
Having considered these facts, we simply cannot determine which type of hilt the Omani's had mounted on these blades, only that the blades used were apparantly in large degree German imports, and appear to have had the capability to vibrate in accord with the action seen in the swords used in the war dance.

I have tried to learn more on the term 'halab' as used in Elgood to describe blades as previously mentioned, however it seems most references such as Stone etc. claim it refers to a Sikh type sword in India. That reference is of course vague in itself as there are actually no specific sword types attributed to Sikh use alone. I am wondering if the term may have been adopted to refer to a blade with characteristics of types which had come from India and had become used in that parlance in Arabia?

Thank you again guys,
All the best,
Jim

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Gentlemen thank you so much for your understanding and agreement that the discussion itself here is paramount and must be carried forward most productively without polarities. Thank you very much for the kind words Lofty, however my 'knowledge' is simply a compendium of that of others which is gathered over the time I spend in researching in order to write here. As I haved noted, I learn from the valuable input of members here and assemble material and observations collectively to form my own perspectives, which can and often will readjust according to degrees of plausibility with information at hand.

The quotes I provided are of course compelling in suggesting that the straight sa'if commonly termed in most references the 'kattara' has indeed been a combat weapon in its well established configuration. The reason I placed these references is that in the study of arms, as I was once told, a writers responsibility is to present not only his views in supporting his theories or thesis, but those opposing as well in order for the reader to properly evaluate the material.

As Ibrahiim has well pointed out, these venerable narratives may have been impressions perceived in less than optimum circumstances for establishing broadly based opinions or observations. While they offer the implications that these swords had blades which did indeed vibrate in accord with the dynamics of the war dance as well as serve in combat, the comments concerning the nature of them only vaguely suggests that imported trade blades were among the weapons seen, not necessarily all of them.

I would however note here in the comments by Mr. Fraser suggesting the comparison of the Omani swords to those of the Scottish Highlander would seem to be to be referring to the baskethilt broadsword, but I believe the comments were directed to the blade, and of course not the hilt. What I believe was meant was that the appearance of the blades in thier profile, size and even in many of the markings on them pointed toward thier being like those produced in Germany for the Scottish swords. Mr. Fraser clearly was familiar with Scottish broadswords as his mention of the 'Andrea Ferrara' marking was a specific not commonly known in general parlance concerning these swords beyond those who had actually seen and handled them.
Having considered these facts, we simply cannot determine which type of hilt the Omani's had mounted on these blades, only that the blades used were apparantly in large degree German imports, and appear to have had the capability to vibrate in accord with the action seen in the swords used in the war dance.

I have tried to learn more on the term 'halab' as used in Elgood to describe blades as previously mentioned, however it seems most references such as Stone etc. claim it refers to a Sikh type sword in India. That reference is of course vague in itself as there are actually no specific sword types attributed to Sikh use alone. I am wondering if the term may have been adopted to refer to a blade with characteristics of types which had come from India and had become used in that parlance in Arabia?

Thank you again guys,
All the best,
Jim

Salaams Jim ~ last point first ~HALAB the old name or original Arab name for Aleppo in Syria. viz Aleppo is the common modern-day English name for the city. It was known in antiquity as Khalpe, Khalibon,[12] and to the Greeks and Romans as Beroea (Βέροια). During the Crusades, and again during the French Mandate for Syria and the Lebanon, the name Alep was used: "Aleppo" is an Italianised version of this.

The ancient name of the city, Halab, is also its Arabic name in the modern day. It is of obscure origin. Some have proposed that Halab means 'iron' or 'copper' in Amorite languages since it was a major source of these metals in antiquity. Halaba in Aramaic means white, referring to the color of soil and marble abundant in the area. Another proposed etymology is that the name Halab means "gave out milk," coming from the ancient tradition that Abraham gave milk to travelers as they moved throughout the region.[13] The colour of his cows was ashen (Arab. shaheb); therefore the city is also called Halab ash-Shahba ("he milked the ash-coloured").

Whereas I cannot find precise information about Omani blades from there it would make sense that there were some perhaps in the Shamshir variety and as a concoction of swords also through Iran since the Shamshir of Safavid form was made by a famous Iraqi swordsmith in the Safavid royal court and his stamp typically copied down the ages.

On the subject of the witnesses in the 19th C in and around Oman and Hormuz I agree that it is interesting but hugely difficult to substantiate and would ask that caution be duly observed. I find it odd that on a single visit a sword blade mark could be identified such as "Solingen" or "andrea ferrera" (probably in style) by someone unaccustomed to the traditions and idiosyncracies in Omani sword work... Perhaps like others (e.g.Burton?) there has been a tendency to embelish a story later? Perhaps he saw one straight variant (the dancing Sword ) or two ( e.g. Also The Old Omani Battle Sword) ? I think at best we can only hold these anecdotes up and hope a light shines through them at some future researched point.

It occured to me when I was researching claymore swords and as a spin off on the European Forum delving into Falchion and Malchus I ended up on a forum search looking at Italian blades and how strikingly similar they were to some straight Red Sea blades I have seen hilted on Omani long hilts. Schiovana blades.

As observed I can report no clear link (as yet) for Omani dancing blades to European factories though I believe a good reference is available on the subject.(German Sword Makers?) I have only identified local manufacture and some itinerant work by Zutoot and pre about 1970. All my references outline dance not war though the Museum mentions European blades it is not specific and could simply be referring to curved Kattara blades. I dont have the Elgood straight sword picture and wondered if that could be published here please?

I am sifting through the book by Ian Skeet on Oman before 1970 and turned up another small gem regarding the Khojas of Muscat... a trader network of families now itegrated into Omani Society along with The Baluch and Persian Baharina. The Khojas are Hyderabadi leading merchant class. ( Thus the Hyderabad swords linkage could be clear) Without these now integrated groups and of course the Indian contingency, Oman before 1970 would have ground to a halt.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Notes;
1. Halab detail courtesy Wiki encyclopaedia.
2. Khojas detail etc courtesy Ian Skeet. Oman before 1970.