FORMING HOT METAL WITH BARE HANDS

[David]

Barry, i saw this kris up for sale, but never for a second thought these indentations were formed at the forging. Their placement does not give that impression. I would be more likely to buy into a story of possible damage from bullets before i would think the former.
As for the possibility of this technique being possible with the fingers i have little doubt, though obviously many examples that we see are not done that way.

[Karttikeya]

Genuine paper thin blades with finger pressure markings or what we call Sombro nowadays should have 9 finger pressure marking, no more no less. Most of blades are supposed as tangguh Segaluh and Pajajaran have 9 luk, I myself do not know why should be 9, Anybody know about it? I share some photos of keris Puthut with 9 finger pressure markings. Indentation from pressure markings occured on every pamor wulan-wulan and also Puthut figure seems very artistic, it was as though the pamor gives the detail appearance of Puthut itself.

[David]

Originally Posted by Karttikeya

Genuine paper thin blades with finger pressure markings or what we call Sombro nowadays should have 9 finger pressure marking, no more no less. Most of blades are supposed as tangguh Segaluh and Pajajaran have 9 luk, I myself do not know why should be 9, Anybody know about it? I share some photos of keris Puthut with 9 finger pressure markings. Indentation from pressure markings occured on every pamor wulan-wulan and also Puthut figure seems very artistic, it was as though the pamor gives the detail appearance of Puthut itself.

Interesting keris Karttikeya. I am somewhat confused by you use of terminology. I have never heard this type of keris called "puthut". AFAIK that term is reserved for keris where the figure is at the gandik, not the hilt. I would probably call this a keris sajen or perhaps simply a talismanic keris. Also, AFAIK, not all keris Sombro display pijit, finger indentations. They also do not have an integral figural iron hilt like your example. I am also confused about your claim that "genuine" keris pijit all have 9 indentation marks. I have at least two examples which i would consider to be genuine. One is a what i know as a keris puthut, the other is what i know as a keris Sombro. The Puthut has 5 indentations, the Sombro has 3. I cannot see the indentations on the photo of your example due to the angle of your shot. I have a hard time, though, picturing 9 indentations on what are generally very short blades.

[A. G. Maisey]

Well Karttikeya, that's something new I've learnt!

I rather think a lot of people don't know this information.

[Boedhi Adhitya]

David,
I understand your confusion. In the old days this kind of keris would be called "keris sajen" or "keris majapahit", but I reckon recently a new terminology arise and call it as "puthut sajen" or "puthut" in sort, due to it's figural, one piece handle. Another term is "puthut cundrik" to call this kind of keris with dhapur cundrik (a kind of pedhang suduk shape). Sometimes it's confused with sombro.

An 'old school boy' like you may get "lost in terminology" nowdays in Java keris world

regards,

Boedhi Adhitya

[A. G. Maisey]

Good to see you back Boedhi.

In the Land of Oz now?

You're right about current keris terminology. One highly respected Solo empu, now retired, remarked to me a couple of years ago:- "where do they get all these names from? I've never heard of them!"

It is absolutely certain that the new generation of Javanese keris fanciers have been busy producing their own lexicon for some time now. If the people I learnt from in the 1970's and 1980's were still alive, they would be just as confused as many of us older people are.

[David]

Originally Posted by Boedhi Adhitya

An 'old school boy' like you may get "lost in terminology" nowdays in Java keris world

Hi Boedhi, nice to read you again.
This is undoubtable true and i certainly make no claims to be up on the latest keris lingo in the Jawa keris world. Not sure that is really possible from half way around the world though.
So if the above type of keris is nowadays referred to as Puthut Sajen, so be it. I am curious what the actual meaning of the word "puthut" is. Can anyone assist there. I have always understood it as a praying figure while i have looked upon the sajen hilts as ancestral figures, which may or may not be the same thing.
Still, i am doubtful that even the current keris world in Jawa would call Karttikeya's keris a Sombro, would they? And i still question that a keris pijit need have 9 indentations to be considered genuine.

[Richard Furrer]

Originally Posted by David

Barry, i saw this kris up for sale, but never for a second thought these indentations were formed at the forging. Their placement does not give that impression. I would be more likely to buy into a story of possible damage from bullets before i would think the former.
As for the possibility of this technique being possible with the fingers i have little doubt, though obviously many examples that we see are not done that way.

I'm afraid I am no help at all with terminology.
As to bullets..remarkable that this blade would have been hit six times and on both sides of the blade...and with no telegraphing of the dent to the opposite side (concave being met with convex..as happens with hail damage to automobiles and all the sheet metal I have in the shop)

As to fingers making those impressions....the spirit is strong, but the flesh is oh so weak.

Vandoo,
Is the patterned pamor nestled into these "finger print" depressions on that blade and not on the opposing side? I would assume this to be the case.

Ric

[David]

Originally Posted by Richard Furrer

As to bullets..remarkable that this blade would have been hit six times and on both sides of the blade...and with no telegraphing of the dent to the opposite side (concave being met with convex..as happens with hail damage to automobiles and all the sheet metal I have in the shop)

Ric, perhaps my sarcasm didn't come through well enough here. When i wrote "I would be more likely to believe..." i meant to imply that i didn't really believe that explanation either, but that it simply seemed more plausible than the former. But both explanations seem implausible to me and these marks appear to be damaged sustained at some point after forging and completely unintentional.

[A. G. Maisey]

A puthut--- or putut--- is a disciple, or servant, or pupil of a holy man. The word exists in Old Javanese. Since the function of a puthut was to protect his teacher, the meaning on a keris blade can be interpreted as protective. However, it does appear to be a later motif, attached to the keris after Islam.

But "puthut" is just the name, and the name may not really indicate the source of inspiration for inclusion. Most keris terminology is comprised of euphemisms, like a lot of belief systems, there is public knowledge and then levels of hidden knowledge.

The number of indentations on a keris pejet that most people will accept as genuine can vary, some people will hold the belief that it can only be a specific number of indentations, placed in a specific way, and this seems to vary depending upon what group of keris fanciers one is aligned with.

The prime identifier for a keris sombro is the eye at the tip of the tang. The legend that goes with this is that she --- Sombro was a woman --- would make a number of blades, string them around her waist, and walk from village to village selling them. She was the daughter of Manca, the grand-daughter Marcukunda, and the great grand-daughter of Kajadsari --- according to Pangeran Wijil.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

A puthut--- or putut--- is a disciple, or servant, or pupil of a holy man. The word exists in Old Javanese. Since the function of a puthut was to protect his teacher, the meaning on a keris blade can be interpreted as protective. However, it does appear to be a later motif, attached to the keris after Islam.

But "puthut" is just the name, and the name may not really indicate the source of inspiration for inclusion. Most keris terminology is comprised of euphemisms, like a lot of belief systems, there is public knowledge and then levels of hidden knowledge.

Thanks Alan. I now recall receiving this same info on the meaning of puthut before. My reason for inquiring the meaning of the word was more to understand how the name has now become attached to keris sajen, not why it was originally used to describe what we know as the dhapur keris puthut. I ask because it seems to me that the symbolism and meaning of the figural hilts of keris sajen is not the same as the symbolism of this figure in the dhapur puthut. But since all this info is vague and unsubstantiated, perhaps i am wrong. Or perhaps i just ask too many questions...