variation of tok chu

[A. G. Maisey]

I've noted the question but I an unable to reply at the moment. 6.am here and I'm off to answer some very different questions at a couple of meetings in Sydney.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I've noted the question but I an unable to reply at the moment. 6.am here and I'm off to answer some very different questions at a couple of meetings in Sydney.

Thanks for noting the question Alan. I look forward to your response.
Just to extend this a bit further, when we talk about Keris Pandai Saras they all usually show the same indicators that allow us to make that designation. Some may be straight, some luk, but we expect to see the same diamond cross section, a generally slim blade and similar application of greneng. It is therefore clearly identifiable as a Keris Pandai Saras, regardless of whether it was actually made by the famed pandai himself.
At this point the O.P. has posted 4 keris that in my estimation show great differences in form far beyond the simple lurus/luk question. I note different cross-sections, greneng, even iron types. These 4 keris really couldn't be more dissimilar to my eyes. So if we do not hold the almost impossible provenance that these keris were actually made by Tok Chu himself, how or why should they all hold the same type name?

[keriswarisanpattani]

Originally Posted by David

Thanks for noting the question Alan. I look forward to your response.
Just to extend this a bit further, when we talk about Keris Pandai Saras they all usually show the same indicators that allow us to make that designation. Some may be straight, some luk, but we expect to see the same diamond cross section, a generally slim blade and similar application of greneng. It is therefore clearly identifiable as a Keris Pandai Saras, regardless of whether it was actually made by the famed pandai himself.
At this point the O.P. has posted 4 keris that in my estimation show great differences in form far beyond the simple lurus/luk question. I note different cross-sections, greneng, even iron types. These 4 keris really couldn't be more dissimilar to my eyes. So if we do not hold the almost impossible provenance that these keris were actually made by Tok Chu himself, how or why should they all hold the same type name?

if they are not made by Tok Chu, of course there are masterpiece out there which is made by Tok Chu and been duplicated. It's may be easy to duplicate but not easy to claim and used Tok Chu name if there are no basic or evidence to do that.

what i believed and most of Kelantanese keris lover believed, Tok Chu (pandai) did not produce only 1 type of keris. But it's have variations which also called as Keris tok Chu.

another luk 3 tok chu keris owned by a royal family. new sheath.credit cikgu nasir

[Gustav]

Actually I suppose, the keris in Blu Erf's post (#8) is not correctly depicted, if I take a look on it's shadow. It could be longer then it seems. A pity we don't have more and proper pics of it.

As David stated, we see three absolutely different style keris in post #1, and material of them is of very different quality.

Here is one similar to post #19 with talismanic inscriptions.

[David]

Originally Posted by keriswarisanpattani

if they are not made by Tok Chu, of course there are masterpiece out there which is made by Tok Chu and been duplicated. It's may be easy to duplicate but not easy to claim and used Tok Chu name if there are no basic or evidence to do that.

what i believed and most of Kelantanese keris lover believed, Tok Chu (pandai) did not produce only 1 type of keris. But it's have variations which also called as Keris tok Chu.

another luk 3 tok chu keris owned by a royal family. new sheath.credit cikgu nasir

You will have to forgive me KWP, but this is the very first time i have ever heard such a thing. Not that Tok Chu didn't have any other styles, that goes without saying, just that any style perceived to have once been made by him would be referred to by his name. Most famous mpus or pandai that are honored by having a keris dhapur named after them generally only get one. I have no doubt that this is what you believe or you wouldn't be this insistent, but if truly most Kelantanese keris lovers believe this i would have thought it would have been brought up before. Can someone please tell me when Tok Chu was supposed to have lived?
Gustav, your example is beautiful. Until now i would have assumed it to be a straight carita keris...

[VVV]

Gustav,

The keris you posted looks very "Danish"
Did you beat me on it?

Michael

[Gustav]

David and Michael,

it isn't mine. At that point I still wasn't aware Denmark would be such an interesting country for people interested in keris

[A. G. Maisey]

David, I apologise for the misunderstanding, the question I noted was the one raised by Karttikeya.

I'm not buying into the "Tok Chu" discussion, as I am not familiar with the Peninsula belief systems relating to keris, however, Javanese makers can have many different styles attributed to them. They may work in a particular style that relates to a particular tangguh, but within that tangguh there can be a relatively wide variation in style. We tend to look at the way in which material has been managed, the material itself, and where present, the cutting of the greneng and especially the ron dha to give an attribution. The pawakan --- overall visual impression --- is important, but not nearly as important as the fine detail.

Perhaps something similar might apply with Peninsula makers.

[keriswarisanpattani]

Originally Posted by David

You will have to forgive me KWP, but this is the very first time i have ever heard such a thing. Not that Tok Chu didn't have any other styles, that goes without saying, just that any style perceived to have once been made by him would be referred to by his name. Most famous mpus or pandai that are honored by having a keris dhapur named after them generally only get one. I have no doubt that this is what you believe or you wouldn't be this insistent, but if truly most Kelantanese keris lovers believe this i would have thought it would have been brought up before. Can someone please tell me when Tok Chu was supposed to have lived?
Gustav, your example is beautiful. Until now i would have assumed it to be a straight carita keris...

dear dave,

no problem. since everybody have their own views base on what they have learnt , research etc. No doubt that tok chu keris famous with one type of keris which is broad, straight etc. But as a famous mpus , i can't believe he's only produce one type of keris during his time. Base on paperwork been discussed tok chu lived circa 1750++ or may be earlier. for detail can referred to ahmed Zaini in kelantan ...on characteristics of tok chu, he can explain better . not saying his 100% right but who knows something new can be found.

[David]

Originally Posted by keriswarisanpattani

But as a famous mpus , i can't believe he's only produce one type of keris during his time.

Thanks for the date...i am not questioning whether Tok Chu produced other forms of keris during his lifetime. I would be surprised if he didn't. I am just wondering if it is a good idea to refer to ALL of those possible different styles as "Keris Tok Chu". Seems like it can only lead to confusion. I am also uncertain that it is possible to know with any reliability which of these forms the Pandai had a hand in developing. Given the timeline of his activity is there any surviving documentation that would show that Tok Chu was responsible for these dhapurs? Does anything like a pakem exist for this era and area?

[khalifah muda]

Originally Posted by David

Thanks for the date...i am not questioning whether Tok Chu produced other forms of keris during his lifetime. I would be surprised if he didn't. I am just wondering if it is a good idea to refer to ALL of those possible different styles as "Keris Tok Chu". Seems like it can only lead to confusion. I am also uncertain that it is possible to know with any reliability which of these forms the Pandai had a hand in developing. Given the timeline of his activity is there any surviving documentation that would show that Tok Chu was responsible for these dhapurs? Does anything like a pakem exist for this era and area?

Unfortunately, there's no surviving documentation to my knowledge. It is still a legend.