Article: Notes on development of modern sabers - Role of Eastern Europe & the Hussars

fspic · 12th February 2012, 03:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mare Rosu

RADU,

"...
Wolviex With a friend like Radu you cannot go wrong.

Gene

Yes, but what if he invites you over to see his swords and bites you on the neck?

fspic · 12th February 2012, 04:33 AM

I have two sabers which fall into the design type discussed here. One is a longer classic Polish/Hungarian/Turkish type with multiple fullers and a Polish wooden bird's head grip. The tip is more upswept blunt rather than pointed. By this time is rather thin from centuries of honing and polishing.

The other blade is close to the late classical Blucher type referenced above and shown as item 12. in one of the color and monochrome illustrations. However it has several trefoil dot stamps which are often found on German or Dutch blades of the 17th century and earlier. Also the half-moon jagged edge marks with stars. This mark is found on some swords made in India but whether it was copied from European style marking I don't know. There is a single broad fuller. The grip is a nice old closed knuckle guard type with fine broad flowery koftgari. How these two came together is anyone's guess given the age and exchange or modification of swords.

As regards the trefoil marks I do have a now straight and flat European blade said to be sixteenth century or older which the seller said was once a much wider blade with a fullered section ground off. It has an Indian tulwar grip of 17th century form. The blade does have a flexible "spring" to it which someone said confirms it is of likely German origin as Indians or anyone else in the region didn't produce blades with that characteristic.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 12th February 2012, 06:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fspic

I have two sabers which fall into the design type discussed here. One is a longer classic Polish/Hungarian/Turkish type with multiple fullers and a Polish wooden bird's head grip. The tip is more upswept blunt rather than pointed. By this time is rather thin from centuries of honing and polishing.

The other blade is close to the late classical Blucher type referenced above and shown as item 12. in one of the color and monochrome illustrations. However it has several trefoil dot stamps which are often found on German or Dutch blades of the 17th century and earlier. Also the half-moon jagged edge marks with stars. This mark is found on some swords made in India but whether it was copied from European style marking I don't know. There is a single broad fuller. The grip is a nice old closed knuckle guard type with fine broad flowery koftgari. How these two came together is anyone's guess given the age and exchange or modification of swords.

As regards the trefoil marks I do have a now straight and flat European blade said to be sixteenth century or older which the seller said was once a much wider blade with a fullered section ground off. It has an Indian tulwar grip of 17th century form. The blade does have a flexible "spring" to it which someone said confirms it is of likely German origin as Indians or anyone else in the region didn't produce blades with that characteristic.

Salaams fspic ~ Great ! ... Please show us some pictures...

Shukran..
Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi

kronckew · 12th February 2012, 04:12 PM

interesting. i especially liked the bit about the estoc as a lance replacement.

the british 1908 and the american 1913 cavalry swords, the last issue swords designed for actual battle use, were pure thrusting weapons, specifically designed to have about the same reach as a lance. the curved sabres of the past were gone forever.

in the early stages of ww1, a british cavalry patrol equipped with said swords, met a german uhlan patrol equipped with lances in one of the last, if not THE last pure cavalry engagements with edged weapons. the germans were soundly defeated. this in part due to the germans being from a newly recruited and barely trained regiment. they of course were pursued by the british, who were stopped dead by a humble farmer's fence across the field. it was of three strands of barbed wire. a prophetic end to the cavalry charge. horses were of course used in the rest of ww1 for pulling wagons and artillery, and were used more successfully in the open middle east, but the day of the edged weapon as a primary cavalry arm were over.

there were persisant rumors of polish lancers attacking german armour while on horseback with lances in ww2. never happened. poles were not that dumb. the lancers did oppose the german armour but not in vain cavalry charges, they used their rifles and light machine guns & anti-tank weapons from cover like any sane person. sadly they were not enough. the horses and lances were parade items, much like the present day canadian mounties. there was, however a successful charge against german infantry, supported by machine guns, etc...

Polish Cavalry Charge ww2

horse were used extensively in ww2, mostly by the germans, again for supply wagons and artillery, but the innovation of the american jeep 4wd put paid to even that.

cavalry with lance, sword, sabre, or estoc is now the field of the collector and scholar, and no longer that of the military.

that is where we come in. keeping history living...

Rick · 13th February 2012, 02:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams fspic ~ Great ! ... Please show us some pictures...

Shukran..
Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Agree !

Please upload some pictures .

Jim McDougall · 12th February 2012, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fspic

Yes, but what if he invites you over to see his swords and bites you on the neck?

Cute

but these kinds of comments better placed on Facebook. Glad to see you move on to more useful material, and I too would like to see photos of your sabres.
By your description, the East European form and note on 'birds head' hilt, do you mean smooth pommel or trilobate 'karabela' form?
Good stuff on the 'Bluchersabel' which is indeed the Prussian M1811 interpretation of the British M1796 light cavalry sabre. Actually the production of these seem well placed as Solingen had already been supplying the British with blades for thier sabres from the 1788 patterns through the 1796 along with other blade types, and the implementation of the hilt was in league with other European forms of these times.

The 'trefoil' dot marks and the jagged half moon marks I would suppose to be the well known 'sickle marks' which evolved presumably from North Italy into trade entrepots widely, and were adopted by blade making centers in Styria, Hungary, Poland and of course Germany. They also became the 'gurda' in the blades of the Caucusus, also later widely exported.
These marks were indeed copied in degree in India, especially northern regions where they occur consistantly on the Afghan 'paluoar' form of sabre, but to the south many, if not most of the straight blades have these marks on the 'firangi' (foreign' ) blades. Again, later many blades received these type marks to emulate the much favored European blades marks.
As far as known, most of the Dutch blades came from Germany, however numbers of Solingen smiths went there to work. I am not aware of significant presence of these sickle marks on swords with Dutch provenance, however with trade blades there certainly may have been some. Most Dutch markings have varying other characteristics.
Well noted on the flexibility issue, and indeed India did have some issues regarding brittle nature of some of thier products, leading to the favor of the European blades.

Kronckew, well said!!!
The use of the lance in combat was indeed a skill which required considerable training, and ill trained troops using them were more of a liability than asset, often more dangerous to themselves and each other. In close quarters of course there were not only awkward obviously, but a completely useless encumbrance. The German lances (of hollow steel shafts rather than wood) were well over 10 feet long.
The M1913 'Patton' cavalry sword, while being declared one of the finest swords ever designed (obviously with nods to the British M1908) was never actually used in combat as far as recorded in references. The British M1908 swords were however used in the Middle East theater in WWI, where they were called 'Allenby' swords for the British commanding general.
One of the best accounts of these is in James Lunt's "Charge to Glory".

The old nonsense about Polish lancers charging German tanks with these was of course primarily German propoganda, and as noted, never actually happened. These cavalrymen, true to thier powerful heritage from the centuries of Polish lancers who had fought with outstanding valor did fight bravely against thier foe using the conventional weapons of the time.

There are many instances of cavalry charges said to be 'the last' up into WWII, where a British regiment I believe in Burma charged against emplaced Japanese units, however with dismal outcome due to machine gun fire. I have often spoken of the British brigadier who led one of the last mounted cavalry charges in India in 1931 on plains in Khyber regions, and who showed me the M1913 officers sword he carried.

The study of these weapons and events is indeed where we come in, and together we will preserve this valuable history.

Nicely done guys! and Ibrahiim, thank you so much for bringing this one back!!!

All the best,
Jim

Rick · 13th February 2012, 02:10 AM

I don't know, Jim; I have a very flexible fine grained wootz Indian sabre at hand here in the armory; almost a straight blade .

They were not all bad .

Jim McDougall · 13th February 2012, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

I don't know, Jim; I have a very flexible fine grained wootz Indian sabre at hand here in the armory; almost a straight blade .

They were not all bad .

Good call Rick, and I hoped my comment didnt sound too 'inflexible'

(pun intended) by qualifying the word 'some' with regard to Indian blades. I hope I can find the reference concerning this dilemma, may have been either Pant or Elgood. There was a quote included regarding the Indian favor of 'firangi' blades resulting in the large volume of them coming into Indian regions which included the disdain for British blades claiming they were 'unfit to cut even butter with'. Apparantly whatever issues were at hand with Indian blades was resolved and actually it does seem that in most times they were held in extremely high esteem, especially in Arabia where the flex of a blade was a keenly observed feature. There are of course blades in India which indeed were even wrapped around ones body almost as a belt.

You have some great stuff in that 'armoury' of yours!!!

All the best,
Jim

12th February 2012, 04:12 PM	#4
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,238	interesting. i especially liked the bit about the estoc as a lance replacement. the british 1908 and the american 1913 cavalry swords, the last issue swords designed for actual battle use, were pure thrusting weapons, specifically designed to have about the same reach as a lance. the curved sabres of the past were gone forever. in the early stages of ww1, a british cavalry patrol equipped with said swords, met a german uhlan patrol equipped with lances in one of the last, if not THE last pure cavalry engagements with edged weapons. the germans were soundly defeated. this in part due to the germans being from a newly recruited and barely trained regiment. they of course were pursued by the british, who were stopped dead by a humble farmer's fence across the field. it was of three strands of barbed wire. a prophetic end to the cavalry charge. horses were of course used in the rest of ww1 for pulling wagons and artillery, and were used more successfully in the open middle east, but the day of the edged weapon as a primary cavalry arm were over. there were persisant rumors of polish lancers attacking german armour while on horseback with lances in ww2. never happened. poles were not that dumb. the lancers did oppose the german armour but not in vain cavalry charges, they used their rifles and light machine guns & anti-tank weapons from cover like any sane person. sadly they were not enough. the horses and lances were parade items, much like the present day canadian mounties. there was, however a successful charge against german infantry, supported by machine guns, etc... Polish Cavalry Charge ww2 horse were used extensively in ww2, mostly by the germans, again for supply wagons and artillery, but the innovation of the american jeep 4wd put paid to even that. cavalry with lance, sword, sabre, or estoc is now the field of the collector and scholar, and no longer that of the military. that is where we come in. keeping history living... Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 12th February 2012 at 04:49 PM.

13th February 2012, 02:10 AM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,347	Flex I don't know, Jim; I have a very flexible fine grained wootz Indian sabre at hand here in the armory; almost a straight blade . They were not all bad .

12th February 2012, 04:33 AM	#2
fspic Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 27	I have two sabers which fall into the design type discussed here. One is a longer classic Polish/Hungarian/Turkish type with multiple fullers and a Polish wooden bird's head grip. The tip is more upswept blunt rather than pointed. By this time is rather thin from centuries of honing and polishing. The other blade is close to the late classical Blucher type referenced above and shown as item 12. in one of the color and monochrome illustrations. However it has several trefoil dot stamps which are often found on German or Dutch blades of the 17th century and earlier. Also the half-moon jagged edge marks with stars. This mark is found on some swords made in India but whether it was copied from European style marking I don't know. There is a single broad fuller. The grip is a nice old closed knuckle guard type with fine broad flowery koftgari. How these two came together is anyone's guess given the age and exchange or modification of swords. As regards the trefoil marks I do have a now straight and flat European blade said to be sixteenth century or older which the seller said was once a much wider blade with a fullered section ground off. It has an Indian tulwar grip of 17th century form. The blade does have a flexible "spring" to it which someone said confirms it is of likely German origin as Indians or anyone else in the region didn't produce blades with that characteristic.