Spanish cup-hilts and bilbos for naval use?

M ELEY · 29th January 2012, 06:08 AM

Thank you, Fernando, for adding your very valuable information and perspective. Excellent pics which indeed add argument to the very question I had proposed. Jim expressed exactly the reason I was being such a 'stickler' when it comes to this subject. believe me, I'd love to say "here is a cargo-hold full of cuphilts, so leave it be"

. I appreciate the examples you have presented and feel they give a very strong argument towards cuphilt use.

Would this same argument hold true for so-called "Caribbean cuphilt rapiers" being used ship-board in the colonies? Again, I think they were. The only reason I asked the question was the lack of support from naval experts mentioned at the start of this thread.

Finally, what say you to the use of the bilbo at sea? It certainly followed on the heels of the two-handed broadswords of earlier eras that saw naval use, so...? I portray the one in my collection as having POTENTIALLY seen naval service.

Sounds like we pirates need to get together some time and come to a conclusion, aye? Pistols at 5 paces to decide the winner??

fernando · 12th February 2012, 03:12 PM

Hi Captain,
I confess i find it hard to spot literature on this theme of cuphilt swords having been aboard. The couple books i access are chronicles of an earlier period, that in which the Portuguese were more involved in sea battles, then with swords of earlier style. Other written works will most probably exist, although presently out of my reach, narrating the period in which they had mostly resumed their presence in Asia to fortifications in firm land, time when forcingly cuphilts were at hand.
Bilbos are further out of my reach, as that would fall into Spanish exclusive typology and not of Iberian spread like the cuphilt.
However i can't let this go without any (say) substance and, if you permit me, i will post a portrait of Portuguese King Dom Afonso VI, in an actual period work, where we can confirm the national role of cuphilt swords, with enough protagonism to be used by Monarchs in their ceremony attire.

.

M ELEY · 15th February 2012, 01:47 PM

Hello Fernando,

Excellent pic of the period with said sword. Its nice to know that there's some artwork out there supporting the connection. I am awaiting the arrival via inter-library loan of several books that might also substantiate the cup-hilt's presence on ships. Again, I don't doubt it nor challenge it, just looking for solid facts when someone asks to say "there is your proof" and be done with it.

This thread was also admittedly part selfish, as I have finally acquired a Caribbean cup-hilt rapier for my maritime collection! Thought I'd be 85 when I'd finally get one, but I'm 44 years early. Hope to post some pics soon, but have been extremely busy. Thanks for the post, though.

Mark

fernando · 15th February 2012, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

... as I have finally acquired a Caribbean cup-hilt rapier for my maritime collection! Thought I'd be 85 when I'd finally get one, but I'm 44 years early. Hope to post some pics soon, but have been extremely busy....

Oh c'mon Mark... what are you waiting for ? don't tell us you will only show us the pictures when you are 85 ?

M ELEY · 15th February 2012, 10:21 PM

BTW, the sources I'm checking on are-

Small Arms of the Spanish Treasure Fleets, N. Wells
A Guide to the Artifacts of Colonial America, I. Hume
Artifacts of the Spanish Colonies of Florida and the Caribbean, Vol 2, K. Deagan

Hopefully, they may shed a little light?

Harold Peterson's 'Arms and Armor in Colonial America:1526-1783' is an excellent resource for weapons and shows both cup-hilts, hangers and smallswords recovered in the colonies. Being that the Jamestown settlement was right on the water, it stands to reason that at this early time period, those same swords found in the colony were undoubtedly carried by those ships on the shore.

M ELEY · 17th February 2012, 09:15 PM

'The Spanish Main:1492-1800' (Osprey Publishing)

A contemporary etching/portrait of Captain-General Pedro Menendez de Aviles, naval commander of the man-o-war that protected the Treasure Fleets and who also wiped out the French Protestants at Matanzas/founded St Augustine.

His portrait shows him with classic cup-hilt, extended side bars, olive-shaped pommel, wire-wrapped grip with 4 posts securing grip material. Finally! A little proof. Can't wait to get the other loaned books...

M ELEY · 7th April 2012, 04:00 AM

Hello all. Having read through numerous selected materials on the Spanish and Portuguese in the New World, I came across the obvious answer to my question which made me feel like a dunce that I hadn't seen it before.

Unlike the rest of the naval powers at the time (1650-1775 or so), these nations always carried a contingent of soldiers aboard their treasure ships (both the Portuguese and Spanish Treasure Fleets) to directly defend against piracy. Thus, these soldiers would have carried the standard arm of their military branch (bilbos and cuphilts). Yes, I know that Sir Walter Raleigh and the like were "soldier/sailors", but for the most part, the Navy typically didn't have other branches of the military on their ships. It wasn't until the Brits started using the Royal Marines in the high tops (a practice carried over to the U.S.) that we see other military forces being 'routinely' utilized.

12th February 2012, 03:12 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Captain, I confess i find it hard to spot literature on this theme of cuphilt swords having been aboard. The couple books i access are chronicles of an earlier period, that in which the Portuguese were more involved in sea battles, then with swords of earlier style. Other written works will most probably exist, although presently out of my reach, narrating the period in which they had mostly resumed their presence in Asia to fortifications in firm land, time when forcingly cuphilts were at hand. Bilbos are further out of my reach, as that would fall into Spanish exclusive typology and not of Iberian spread like the cuphilt. However i can't let this go without any (say) substance and, if you permit me, i will post a portrait of Portuguese King Dom Afonso VI, in an actual period work, where we can confirm the national role of cuphilt swords, with enough protagonism to be used by Monarchs in their ceremony attire. . Attached Images

15th February 2012, 10:21 PM	#5
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,196	BTW, the sources I'm checking on are- Small Arms of the Spanish Treasure Fleets, N. Wells A Guide to the Artifacts of Colonial America, I. Hume Artifacts of the Spanish Colonies of Florida and the Caribbean, Vol 2, K. Deagan Hopefully, they may shed a little light? Harold Peterson's 'Arms and Armor in Colonial America:1526-1783' is an excellent resource for weapons and shows both cup-hilts, hangers and smallswords recovered in the colonies. Being that the Jamestown settlement was right on the water, it stands to reason that at this early time period, those same swords found in the colony were undoubtedly carried by those ships on the shore. Last edited by M ELEY; 16th February 2012 at 04:12 AM.

17th February 2012, 09:15 PM	#6
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,196	Pay-dirt! 'The Spanish Main:1492-1800' (Osprey Publishing) A contemporary etching/portrait of Captain-General Pedro Menendez de Aviles, naval commander of the man-o-war that protected the Treasure Fleets and who also wiped out the French Protestants at Matanzas/founded St Augustine. His portrait shows him with classic cup-hilt, extended side bars, olive-shaped pommel, wire-wrapped grip with 4 posts securing grip material. Finally! A little proof. Can't wait to get the other loaned books...

29th January 2012, 06:08 AM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,196	Thank you, Fernando, for adding your very valuable information and perspective. Excellent pics which indeed add argument to the very question I had proposed. Jim expressed exactly the reason I was being such a 'stickler' when it comes to this subject. believe me, I'd love to say "here is a cargo-hold full of cuphilts, so leave it be" . I appreciate the examples you have presented and feel they give a very strong argument towards cuphilt use. Would this same argument hold true for so-called "Caribbean cuphilt rapiers" being used ship-board in the colonies? Again, I think they were. The only reason I asked the question was the lack of support from naval experts mentioned at the start of this thread. Finally, what say you to the use of the bilbo at sea? It certainly followed on the heels of the two-handed broadswords of earlier eras that saw naval use, so...? I portray the one in my collection as having POTENTIALLY seen naval service. Sounds like we pirates need to get together some time and come to a conclusion, aye? Pistols at 5 paces to decide the winner??

15th February 2012, 01:47 PM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,196	Hello Fernando, Excellent pic of the period with said sword. Its nice to know that there's some artwork out there supporting the connection. I am awaiting the arrival via inter-library loan of several books that might also substantiate the cup-hilt's presence on ships. Again, I don't doubt it nor challenge it, just looking for solid facts when someone asks to say "there is your proof" and be done with it. This thread was also admittedly part selfish, as I have finally acquired a Caribbean cup-hilt rapier for my maritime collection! Thought I'd be 85 when I'd finally get one, but I'm 44 years early. Hope to post some pics soon, but have been extremely busy. Thanks for the post, though. Mark

7th April 2012, 04:00 AM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,196	Hello all. Having read through numerous selected materials on the Spanish and Portuguese in the New World, I came across the obvious answer to my question which made me feel like a dunce that I hadn't seen it before. Unlike the rest of the naval powers at the time (1650-1775 or so), these nations always carried a contingent of soldiers aboard their treasure ships (both the Portuguese and Spanish Treasure Fleets) to directly defend against piracy. Thus, these soldiers would have carried the standard arm of their military branch (bilbos and cuphilts). Yes, I know that Sir Walter Raleigh and the like were "soldier/sailors", but for the most part, the Navy typically didn't have other branches of the military on their ships. It wasn't until the Brits started using the Royal Marines in the high tops (a practice carried over to the U.S.) that we see other military forces being 'routinely' utilized.