Spanish cup-hilts and bilbos for naval use?

M ELEY · 23rd January 2012, 03:06 PM

Having done some research myself on shipwrecks, it has become very apparent that very few sword parts from wrecks of ANY nationality survive. The Queen Anne's Revenge has yielded only one sword guard. The Whydah likewise is scant. The Atocha did have one rapier turn up, but it was a swept-hilt vs the cup-hilt I'm inquiring about. Having done some searches and learning about what survives these wrecks, it became apparent why few survive (other than the obvious corrosion of iron items).

So far, the blades recovered from these wrecks have been, as Jim pointed out, trade items in the hold. With underwater archaeology, it was become known that delicate items, such as wood-stocked guns, daggers, swords, cloth, etc, that has survived had been stored in the hold. When many of these ships sunk, the hold was rapidly buried under the sand, with many of the said artifacts protected. Arms that would have been worn by the crew were not so protected. Yes, I know most crews didn't go walking around the ship armed, but they would have been readily available (at a weapons station on deck, mounted to a mast, in a storage barrel for boarders, etc. Likewise, surviving members who were so armed would have escaped with their weapons (survival after a shipwreck on a strange coast would have depended on it). Soooo...perhaps we'll never be sure if the Spanish and Portuguese carried these sword types to sea.

Jim McDougall · 23rd January 2012, 06:11 PM

Hi Mark,
As always, good points and well placed research notes. As far as I know there have been a few cases of sword components found on some English wrecks associated with pirates, notably as mentioned the Whydah and the Henrietta Marie as well. These were of course the hunting hanger type weapons and were severely encrusted. I spent some time going through lists of Spanish wrecks and there were a few references to sword and firearm items among some inventories but no specific mention or detail. Obviously with the Spanish wrecks the focus is on treasure so the weapons were referred to as inconsequential and of little interest to interactions or information on these wrecks. Unfortunately the quest for 'treasure' soundly trumps any valuable archeological data which is held in these wreck sites in altogether too many cases. I would carefully qualify that I mean that generally as I know there are many serious divers out there who do recognize the importance of this detail, and act responsibly in matters accordingly.

Having mentioned that, I am trying to reach a friend who is one of those serious divers and was involved in dives on the Queen Annes Revenge some years ago. I am hoping he can help with data on some Spanish wrecks with his connections, but irs been some time since communicating with him.

I will point out that in the case of the QAR, the ship was abandoned by Blackbeard and he was actually 'downsizing' his forces as he was I believe intending to move toward a surrender in a pardon arrangement. It seems ironic that the events in which he was killed took place considering those circumstances. In any case, there was no reason for small arms of any kind to be left on the ship which was deliberately foundered, and the heavy cannons no longer needed for the smaller ship he transferred to, were of course left in place. I recall pestering my friend and asking 'where are the swords? you keep finding cannons!'.

The sword hilt which was subsequently found near the QAR wreck site in my opinion was collateral debris from a later period, despite the claims made in news items which allude to the possibility of actual connection to the QAR and even as far as suggesting the sword might have been Blackbeards! pure hyperbole! The hilt is of the fashionable court/hunting type with apertures for a chain guard, a feature which as far as I know was not present until after the time of Blackbeards demise. It is likely an item lost overboard in these heavily trafficked lanes at a later time.

All the best,
Jim

M ELEY · 24th January 2012, 05:48 AM

Excellent information as always, my friend. Thank you for asking your archeology friend for what he might have found on Spanish wrecks. From the swept-hilt found on the Atocha, one can understand Gilkerson's comment on rapier-types being carried. It stands to reason that the conquestadors would have carried either broadswords or rapiers, both popular during the period.

-Treasure finds over-shadowing the 'less valuable' everyday items. You hit that one right on the head, Jim. It drives me crazy that when it comes to Spanish ships, all of the info on them concentrates on the gold, silver, precious artifacts and gems. I've even seen so-called professional articles do the same thing, where a little side note will say something like 'also found were daggers, sword hilts, cannonballs clustered together', etc, etc, with absolutely no detail. It's maddening!

-QAR dagger hilt find. Yes, we discussed this one before and I am in total agreement that it is later period and from a later wreck. Blackbeard's sword-

Right! There is a reason they call the Outer Banks the 'Graveyard of the Atlantic'. I'm sure if they went digging all along the shallows of Ocracoke Sound, they'd find even more unidentified wrecks. Used to know an acquaintance who dived out there and would find worm-eaten musket stocks, CW buckles, lead shot, cannon balls, etc.

Jim McDougall · 24th January 2012, 06:31 AM

Thank you Mark!
I hope I'll hear from him, but time goes by and you lose touch etc. Last time I talked with him was when he was diving on the 'Monitor' some years ago.

I have been going through everything I can find to see if perhaps maybe a ship name and record of find might have inventory details etc. It is interesting that one reference notes that Spanish galleons were intended for boarding combat with contingents of soldiers aboard and the high castles were ideal for suppressive fire. Other references refer to sailors on Spanish and Portuguese ships used the rapier through 17th into 18th century but that close quarters fighting rendered these ineffective.

These observations seem presumptive, especially that 'sailors' used rapiers aboard these ships, intimating that rank and file seamen would have used these expensive swords. A.V.B. Norman notes that it is unclear just when the 'cuphilt' came into use or its origins, but it seems they were well in use by mid 17th century. The fully developed hilt rapiers were in use of course in the previous century and well established with officers and nobles among the conquistadors. Aboard Spanish ships I would imagine that figures of rank and standing wore swords much as they did elsewhere without regard for special types or selection toward shipboard combat. The combat interaction was the business of ordinary seamen and as mentioned soldiers on board.

I think that probably in the case of soldiers, they would have had heavier bladed arming swords and seamen would have had access to stout, heavy bladed cutlass type hangers as you have noted in key storage on board for use as required. For the most part the utilitarian axes and knives etc. would have served as well.

As we agree, the lack of evidence of weapon types from the remains of the many Spanish wrecks found is due to the relative insignificance of them in comparison to the treasure found. Many of these weapons have not survived as the precious metals and jewels of course are heavy and non corrosive while the materials in weapons are not. Most of the weapon components found are either traces left with thier impressions in heavy concretion , or just pieces which have been sufficiently covered by protective silt or covering prohibiting oxygen contact, at least in my limited understanding of undersea archaeology.

I know what you mean about 'Graveyard of the Atlantic'. I used to find the works of Edward Rowe Snow fascinating! and his tales of all the shipwrecks and nautical lore. I really hope I can get this rig over there one day

All the best,
Jim

M ELEY · 24th January 2012, 01:11 PM

If you ever make it this way, Cap'n Jim, I'll have the grog waiting-

Have you ever been to Historic Beauford,NC? This has a documented property that actually belonged to William Teach and it's still standing. The NC Maritime Museum is there, as is an ancient cemetery where the privateer Otway Banks of War of 1812 fame is buried. Went there this summer and had a blast!

You bring up an excellent point concerning the contingent of soldiers on board. I was thinking of the later British navy with their marines, but of coarse this practice existed much earlier with the great galleons. It stands to reason that foot soldiers on these ships could certainly been armed with bilbos, as well as hangers. That being said (

), I won't let it go that some cup-hilted rapiers might have made it to sea, just as many other types of swords did per preference. I guess I'm thinking about the private merchant class ships and colonial Spanish ships as well, where the rules were not so tight.

M ELEY · 26th January 2012, 03:14 PM

Opps! Meant to say 'Otway Burns', not Banks (check him out on wikipedia). This fellow was quite an interesting and obscure character, but a true NC hero and privateer of the War of 1812 era...

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 27th January 2012, 03:04 PM

Salaams all,
I was thumbing through some vague references to HMS Victory hoping to turn up a lead on this subject though to little avail except that I know that boarding parties(Royal Marines and seamen) used a basic cup hilt cutlass. It does appear that officers had a rather more decorative item more for badge of office and show . The only Portuguese blades I have seen in Oman are blade only items clearly spoils of war.. or fragmentary. The French were quite likely to have such weapons since there were many privateers in the Indian Ocean in the Napoleonic days. I continue to search.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

24th January 2012, 01:11 PM	#5
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,196	If you ever make it this way, Cap'n Jim, I'll have the grog waiting- Have you ever been to Historic Beauford,NC? This has a documented property that actually belonged to William Teach and it's still standing. The NC Maritime Museum is there, as is an ancient cemetery where the privateer Otway Banks of War of 1812 fame is buried. Went there this summer and had a blast! You bring up an excellent point concerning the contingent of soldiers on board. I was thinking of the later British navy with their marines, but of coarse this practice existed much earlier with the great galleons. It stands to reason that foot soldiers on these ships could certainly been armed with bilbos, as well as hangers. That being said ( ), I won't let it go that some cup-hilted rapiers might have made it to sea, just as many other types of swords did per preference. I guess I'm thinking about the private merchant class ships and colonial Spanish ships as well, where the rules were not so tight. Last edited by M ELEY; 24th January 2012 at 01:21 PM.

23rd January 2012, 03:06 PM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,196	Having done some research myself on shipwrecks, it has become very apparent that very few sword parts from wrecks of ANY nationality survive. The Queen Anne's Revenge has yielded only one sword guard. The Whydah likewise is scant. The Atocha did have one rapier turn up, but it was a swept-hilt vs the cup-hilt I'm inquiring about. Having done some searches and learning about what survives these wrecks, it became apparent why few survive (other than the obvious corrosion of iron items). So far, the blades recovered from these wrecks have been, as Jim pointed out, trade items in the hold. With underwater archaeology, it was become known that delicate items, such as wood-stocked guns, daggers, swords, cloth, etc, that has survived had been stored in the hold. When many of these ships sunk, the hold was rapidly buried under the sand, with many of the said artifacts protected. Arms that would have been worn by the crew were not so protected. Yes, I know most crews didn't go walking around the ship armed, but they would have been readily available (at a weapons station on deck, mounted to a mast, in a storage barrel for boarders, etc. Likewise, surviving members who were so armed would have escaped with their weapons (survival after a shipwreck on a strange coast would have depended on it). Soooo...perhaps we'll never be sure if the Spanish and Portuguese carried these sword types to sea.

23rd January 2012, 06:11 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,585	Hi Mark, As always, good points and well placed research notes. As far as I know there have been a few cases of sword components found on some English wrecks associated with pirates, notably as mentioned the Whydah and the Henrietta Marie as well. These were of course the hunting hanger type weapons and were severely encrusted. I spent some time going through lists of Spanish wrecks and there were a few references to sword and firearm items among some inventories but no specific mention or detail. Obviously with the Spanish wrecks the focus is on treasure so the weapons were referred to as inconsequential and of little interest to interactions or information on these wrecks. Unfortunately the quest for 'treasure' soundly trumps any valuable archeological data which is held in these wreck sites in altogether too many cases. I would carefully qualify that I mean that generally as I know there are many serious divers out there who do recognize the importance of this detail, and act responsibly in matters accordingly. Having mentioned that, I am trying to reach a friend who is one of those serious divers and was involved in dives on the Queen Annes Revenge some years ago. I am hoping he can help with data on some Spanish wrecks with his connections, but irs been some time since communicating with him. I will point out that in the case of the QAR, the ship was abandoned by Blackbeard and he was actually 'downsizing' his forces as he was I believe intending to move toward a surrender in a pardon arrangement. It seems ironic that the events in which he was killed took place considering those circumstances. In any case, there was no reason for small arms of any kind to be left on the ship which was deliberately foundered, and the heavy cannons no longer needed for the smaller ship he transferred to, were of course left in place. I recall pestering my friend and asking 'where are the swords? you keep finding cannons!'. The sword hilt which was subsequently found near the QAR wreck site in my opinion was collateral debris from a later period, despite the claims made in news items which allude to the possibility of actual connection to the QAR and even as far as suggesting the sword might have been Blackbeards! pure hyperbole! The hilt is of the fashionable court/hunting type with apertures for a chain guard, a feature which as far as I know was not present until after the time of Blackbeards demise. It is likely an item lost overboard in these heavily trafficked lanes at a later time. All the best, Jim

24th January 2012, 05:48 AM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,196	Excellent information as always, my friend. Thank you for asking your archeology friend for what he might have found on Spanish wrecks. From the swept-hilt found on the Atocha, one can understand Gilkerson's comment on rapier-types being carried. It stands to reason that the conquestadors would have carried either broadswords or rapiers, both popular during the period. -Treasure finds over-shadowing the 'less valuable' everyday items. You hit that one right on the head, Jim. It drives me crazy that when it comes to Spanish ships, all of the info on them concentrates on the gold, silver, precious artifacts and gems. I've even seen so-called professional articles do the same thing, where a little side note will say something like 'also found were daggers, sword hilts, cannonballs clustered together', etc, etc, with absolutely no detail. It's maddening! -QAR dagger hilt find. Yes, we discussed this one before and I am in total agreement that it is later period and from a later wreck. Blackbeard's sword- Right! There is a reason they call the Outer Banks the 'Graveyard of the Atlantic'. I'm sure if they went digging all along the shallows of Ocracoke Sound, they'd find even more unidentified wrecks. Used to know an acquaintance who dived out there and would find worm-eaten musket stocks, CW buckles, lead shot, cannon balls, etc.

24th January 2012, 06:31 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,585	Thank you Mark! I hope I'll hear from him, but time goes by and you lose touch etc. Last time I talked with him was when he was diving on the 'Monitor' some years ago. I have been going through everything I can find to see if perhaps maybe a ship name and record of find might have inventory details etc. It is interesting that one reference notes that Spanish galleons were intended for boarding combat with contingents of soldiers aboard and the high castles were ideal for suppressive fire. Other references refer to sailors on Spanish and Portuguese ships used the rapier through 17th into 18th century but that close quarters fighting rendered these ineffective. These observations seem presumptive, especially that 'sailors' used rapiers aboard these ships, intimating that rank and file seamen would have used these expensive swords. A.V.B. Norman notes that it is unclear just when the 'cuphilt' came into use or its origins, but it seems they were well in use by mid 17th century. The fully developed hilt rapiers were in use of course in the previous century and well established with officers and nobles among the conquistadors. Aboard Spanish ships I would imagine that figures of rank and standing wore swords much as they did elsewhere without regard for special types or selection toward shipboard combat. The combat interaction was the business of ordinary seamen and as mentioned soldiers on board. I think that probably in the case of soldiers, they would have had heavier bladed arming swords and seamen would have had access to stout, heavy bladed cutlass type hangers as you have noted in key storage on board for use as required. For the most part the utilitarian axes and knives etc. would have served as well. As we agree, the lack of evidence of weapon types from the remains of the many Spanish wrecks found is due to the relative insignificance of them in comparison to the treasure found. Many of these weapons have not survived as the precious metals and jewels of course are heavy and non corrosive while the materials in weapons are not. Most of the weapon components found are either traces left with thier impressions in heavy concretion , or just pieces which have been sufficiently covered by protective silt or covering prohibiting oxygen contact, at least in my limited understanding of undersea archaeology. I know what you mean about 'Graveyard of the Atlantic'. I used to find the works of Edward Rowe Snow fascinating! and his tales of all the shipwrecks and nautical lore. I really hope I can get this rig over there one day All the best, Jim

26th January 2012, 03:14 PM	#6
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,196	Opps! Meant to say 'Otway Burns', not Banks (check him out on wikipedia). This fellow was quite an interesting and obscure character, but a true NC hero and privateer of the War of 1812 era...

27th January 2012, 03:04 PM	#7
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams all, I was thumbing through some vague references to HMS Victory hoping to turn up a lead on this subject though to little avail except that I know that boarding parties(Royal Marines and seamen) used a basic cup hilt cutlass. It does appear that officers had a rather more decorative item more for badge of office and show . The only Portuguese blades I have seen in Oman are blade only items clearly spoils of war.. or fragmentary. The French were quite likely to have such weapons since there were many privateers in the Indian Ocean in the Napoleonic days. I continue to search. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.