2 Victorian Lances

Rick · 21st January 2012, 01:36 AM

Oh, those are sweet !
Congratulations .

Gavin Nugent · 21st January 2012, 02:36 AM

Congrats,

Very nice and very very very good order.

I too recently bought 4 of these too, some loop straps intact, some broken one end, others with blue and white banners attached at the spear point.

Mine came with a group of short stabbing spears from Africa, perhaps the blue and white banners on mine can offer some insight to an African campaign....I look forward to what the professor comes back with....Scottish regiment perhaps

Gav

Gavin Nugent · 21st January 2012, 05:13 AM

A quick search turned up the following for blue and white;

3rd Cavalry
Blue koorta with scarlet facings
Dark Blue turban
Red sash
Yellow trousers
Blue over white lance pennon

This dates from british India 1857 records so not likely for mine....

Jim McDougall · 21st January 2012, 05:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebooter

A quick search turned up the following for blue and white;

3rd Cavalry
Blue koorta with scarlet facings
Dark Blue turban
Red sash
Yellow trousers
Blue over white lance pennon

This dates from british India 1857 records so not likely for mine....

Just saw this, excellent work there Gav!!! As far as Ive known British units even native cavalry used red and white pennons, except 3rd Bengal Lancers which used blue and yellow in later years of 19th century.

Any pics of your lances?

All the best,
Jim

Gavin Nugent · 21st January 2012, 06:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Just saw this, excellent work there Gav!!! As far as Ive known British units even native cavalry used red and white pennons, except 3rd Bengal Lancers which used blue and yellow in later years of 19th century.

Any pics of your lances?

All the best,
Jim

Thanks Jim. Unfortunately they are in storage until the end of Feb at latest but I'll bring them to the table then.

Gav

katana · 21st January 2012, 02:44 PM

Thank you for all the replies and the congrats Rick

Gav

, I would also like to see pictures of your lances when they are 'available'

I never knew that there were blue/white pennants in the British Army....I thought all were red and white

Jim

,
thank you for the back ground ...... the vision of you in 'jousting mode' on a freeway is now stuck in my head ......I do hope you were sporting your pith helmet to complete the 'ensemble' ......

as some of the pictures show below......

These lances were used in many conflicts in Africa ....as well as India. The Madhist uprising also saw the Lancers put to use. As far as I can tell the Lancers at the tail end of the 19th C were rarely used in European conflicts perhaps, due to the effectiveness of long range firearms....but in colonial engagements they continued to flourish.

Kind Regards David

A few pics gleamed from the web......

Iain · 21st January 2012, 02:50 PM

Really neat images David, I wasn't familiar with the use of the lancers in the colonies. Of course congratulations are in order for the lances as well! Really fine looking pieces and amazing to get them intact with the straps.

Fascinating subject, please keep posting more info guys.

Jim McDougall · 21st January 2012, 05:53 AM

Hi David,
After hours of 'excavations' here in the bookmobile, Ive plowed through everything I could find on British lances. Found the article I was looking for "The British Lance" by J.D. Chown (Canadian Journal of Arms Collecting, Vol.7 #3, 1974, pp.97-102) but lacks detail, simply specs on patterns. More date found in "Sword, Lance and Bayonet" C.Ffoulkes & E.C.Hopkinson 1938 (repr. 1967). Apparantly earlier lances had langets with attachment screws on both head and foot (butt) intil the 1868 pattern (like yours) where these were affixed with shellac to the shaft (Ffoulkes & Hopkinson p.106).

The 1868 pattern apparantly also called for a male bamboo shaft, which was sometimes difficult to obtain to meet standards with some cases of returning to ash shafts. The M1868 remained the same into later years, but in 1885 the shafts were ash and that became the pattern officially, with the furniture basically the same. This brings in some confusion as we know ash was sometimes substituted on the M1868, while the 1885 was strictly ash.
An experimental pattern in 1895 has long head socket and three slotted holes to affix pennon, but did not become officially adopted in British units. I have seen these however on Indian units' lances from WWI.

The markings are interesting and I think the 'TP' markings possibly have to do with sizes in the sockets for adapting to variations in the bamboo size, there were apparantly 7 head sizes and 4 shoe sizes. I thought there might be possibility that the 'T' was poorly stamped 'I' which would suggest India pattern, but that seems unlikely as the shoes are clearly not that, and the 'E' markings to me of course suggest Enfield Small Arms Factory. The crown and the number '73' (probably year of production) also strongly take away from the India possibility.

While there are no issue marks to regiment, it would seem if 1873 is the production or assembly year, these could have been at least of the type used by the 17th lancers who were sent to South Africa in 1880. They arrived to the area of Rorkes Drift around May, 1880 and on July 4, 1880 near White Umvolosi River near Royal Kraal at Ulundi they charged Zulu warriors at the battle called Ulundi.
In the 2nd Boer War (1899-1902) the 16th lancers were with Lord Roberts at Praetoria and are seen with these type lances in photos. The lance was used by British line regiments in combat was by the 5th lancers at Elandslaagle in South Africa at beginning of 2nd Boer War.

While the lance was officially abolished in 1903 it was somehow reinstated in 1909 until 1927. The lance was used effectively by Indian cavalry regiments in various campaigns and in Palestine in WWI, as well as by British units at Moy (28Aug1914) and Marne (Sept.1914).

The lance is still used by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police in their drill performances, and I will never forget seeing one of those some years ago.

I will also never forget when I got my first pair of lances many years ago. I had won them in an overseas auction and when called by customs in Los Angeles to notify me of thier arrival I was so excited I roared off to the airport some 55 miles away without thinking of logistics. I was driving a 1969 Corvette with T tops, so of course these 9 ft.lances were sticking into the air as I 'charged' down the 405 freeway!!! I got the attention of the Highway Patrol as the bewildered officer could not resist asking what these 'spears' were doing sticking out of my car. Luckily he had a sense of humor and off I went

Anyway, I think yours are pattern 1868 as noted, the 73 production year most likely at Enfield, could well have gone to South Africa in either of the instances mentioned or both, but unclear on absence of regimental marks.
Whatever the case....extremely nice!!!!!!

All the best,
Jim

21st January 2012, 02:36 AM	#2
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Congrats, Very nice and very very very good order. I too recently bought 4 of these too, some loop straps intact, some broken one end, others with blue and white banners attached at the spear point. Mine came with a group of short stabbing spears from Africa, perhaps the blue and white banners on mine can offer some insight to an African campaign....I look forward to what the professor comes back with....Scottish regiment perhaps Gav Last edited by freebooter; 21st January 2012 at 04:55 AM. Reason: Additions

21st January 2012, 02:44 PM	#6
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Thank you for all the replies and the congrats Rick Gav , I would also like to see pictures of your lances when they are 'available' I never knew that there were blue/white pennants in the British Army....I thought all were red and white Jim , thank you for the back ground ...... the vision of you in 'jousting mode' on a freeway is now stuck in my head ......I do hope you were sporting your pith helmet to complete the 'ensemble' ...... as some of the pictures show below...... These lances were used in many conflicts in Africa ....as well as India. The Madhist uprising also saw the Lancers put to use. As far as I can tell the Lancers at the tail end of the 19th C were rarely used in European conflicts perhaps, due to the effectiveness of long range firearms....but in colonial engagements they continued to flourish. Kind Regards David A few pics gleamed from the web...... Attached Images

21st January 2012, 01:36 AM	#1
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,347	Oh, those are sweet ! Congratulations .

21st January 2012, 05:13 AM	#3
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	A quick search turned up the following for blue and white; 3rd Cavalry Blue koorta with scarlet facings Dark Blue turban Red sash Yellow trousers Blue over white lance pennon This dates from british India 1857 records so not likely for mine....

21st January 2012, 02:50 PM	#7
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,719	Really neat images David, I wasn't familiar with the use of the lancers in the colonies. Of course congratulations are in order for the lances as well! Really fine looking pieces and amazing to get them intact with the straps. Fascinating subject, please keep posting more info guys.

21st January 2012, 05:53 AM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	Hi David, After hours of 'excavations' here in the bookmobile, Ive plowed through everything I could find on British lances. Found the article I was looking for "The British Lance" by J.D. Chown (Canadian Journal of Arms Collecting, Vol.7 #3, 1974, pp.97-102) but lacks detail, simply specs on patterns. More date found in "Sword, Lance and Bayonet" C.Ffoulkes & E.C.Hopkinson 1938 (repr. 1967). Apparantly earlier lances had langets with attachment screws on both head and foot (butt) intil the 1868 pattern (like yours) where these were affixed with shellac to the shaft (Ffoulkes & Hopkinson p.106). The 1868 pattern apparantly also called for a male bamboo shaft, which was sometimes difficult to obtain to meet standards with some cases of returning to ash shafts. The M1868 remained the same into later years, but in 1885 the shafts were ash and that became the pattern officially, with the furniture basically the same. This brings in some confusion as we know ash was sometimes substituted on the M1868, while the 1885 was strictly ash. An experimental pattern in 1895 has long head socket and three slotted holes to affix pennon, but did not become officially adopted in British units. I have seen these however on Indian units' lances from WWI. The markings are interesting and I think the 'TP' markings possibly have to do with sizes in the sockets for adapting to variations in the bamboo size, there were apparantly 7 head sizes and 4 shoe sizes. I thought there might be possibility that the 'T' was poorly stamped 'I' which would suggest India pattern, but that seems unlikely as the shoes are clearly not that, and the 'E' markings to me of course suggest Enfield Small Arms Factory. The crown and the number '73' (probably year of production) also strongly take away from the India possibility. While there are no issue marks to regiment, it would seem if 1873 is the production or assembly year, these could have been at least of the type used by the 17th lancers who were sent to South Africa in 1880. They arrived to the area of Rorkes Drift around May, 1880 and on July 4, 1880 near White Umvolosi River near Royal Kraal at Ulundi they charged Zulu warriors at the battle called Ulundi. In the 2nd Boer War (1899-1902) the 16th lancers were with Lord Roberts at Praetoria and are seen with these type lances in photos. The lance was used by British line regiments in combat was by the 5th lancers at Elandslaagle in South Africa at beginning of 2nd Boer War. While the lance was officially abolished in 1903 it was somehow reinstated in 1909 until 1927. The lance was used effectively by Indian cavalry regiments in various campaigns and in Palestine in WWI, as well as by British units at Moy (28Aug1914) and Marne (Sept.1914). The lance is still used by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police in their drill performances, and I will never forget seeing one of those some years ago. I will also never forget when I got my first pair of lances many years ago. I had won them in an overseas auction and when called by customs in Los Angeles to notify me of thier arrival I was so excited I roared off to the airport some 55 miles away without thinking of logistics. I was driving a 1969 Corvette with T tops, so of course these 9 ft.lances were sticking into the air as I 'charged' down the 405 freeway!!! I got the attention of the Highway Patrol as the bewildered officer could not resist asking what these 'spears' were doing sticking out of my car. Luckily he had a sense of humor and off I went Anyway, I think yours are pattern 1868 as noted, the 73 production year most likely at Enfield, could well have gone to South Africa in either of the instances mentioned or both, but unclear on absence of regimental marks. Whatever the case....extremely nice!!!!!! All the best, Jim