Celebes keris?

Harley · 13th January 2012, 10:51 PM

It looks like i am overruled here, i reckon i am the only one with this strange way of thinking

But it definitely made me to give it a second taught!
Thanks Marco

regards,
Ben

asomotif · 13th January 2012, 11:13 PM

Hello Ben,

Nice keris. The fit in the scabbard looks good. So I am also in favour of keeping it as it is. I would probably even not straighten the peksi unless it would give an inproper fitting of the hilt.

As for turning this into a javanese keris ?
Why bother, when there are plenty of nice javanese keris available.
Expand your collection

find a nice javanese keris in javanese dress.

Best regards,
Willem

Harley · 13th January 2012, 11:15 PM

David,

I fully agree that the history is important, but what about the Bali keris that I've shown, the sheath i think was made for that blade,
OK the pendok was a bad repair, but it had a sort of history behind it.
It was a plain ugly sheath, but the woodwork was not bad at all, I've i had shared your opinion, then that wasn't a good choice either.
I can't tell you if this Javanese blade and sheath has a history, or it's just done to sell, it comes from a antique shop, so it could be both way's.
But these are the things that are so great about this forum, everyone give there honest opinion, and i respect that fully.

regards,
Ben

Harley · 13th January 2012, 11:31 PM

thanks Willem,

I was going to straighten the pesi for the Javanese sheath and hilt, but when i read all the response it's not a good idea

You know Willem not everyone is the same position, the only way for me to expand my collection is the way i do now, buying blades and make a sheath an urikan, maybe not the real thing, but for me it will do.
My little collection exist of almost all Javanese keris, so that is not the point

best regards,
Ben

Sajen · 14th January 2012, 12:09 AM

Hi Ben,

can you give us a picture from up when the blade is inside the sheath? And as well a look inside the sheath mouth without blade?

BTW, the Bugis sheath is very very nice!

Best,

Detlef

Harley · 14th January 2012, 12:36 AM

Hi Detlef,

I have tried to make the pictures, but i had to do it with my mobile cause the batteries of my camera are empty.
I've these are no good i try to make better ones tomorrow.

Thanks, i like the sheath also.

best regards,
Ben

Sajen · 14th January 2012, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harley

Hi Detlef,

I have tried to make the pictures, but i had to do it with my mobile cause the batteries of my camera are empty.
I've these are no good i try to make better ones tomorrow.

Thanks, i like the sheath also.

best regards,
Ben

Hi Ben,

thank you for the pictures! They are good enough and I think like all others that this sheath was made for this blade and I never would change something without the exception that I would keep my eyes peeled for a bigger pendokok for the hilt.

Best regards,

Detlef

PenangsangII · 14th January 2012, 11:05 AM

i even several times purposely purchased straight Jawanese blades only (possibly the original wrangka were damaged or purchased by other buyers) then sheathed them with Pattani tebeng sarungs to emulate what could have transpired in the past

Harley · 14th January 2012, 12:15 PM

Hi David,

Thank you for your explanation, i agree with almost everything you've said.
What i don't understand is that you don't find the old (Bali) sheath nicely made.
I can understand that was a mix of styles, and i was ugly

, but it was made properly, maybe my bad photo's has something to do with that.

I haven't read the thread of keris Taming Sari yet, i am now on page 6 and was starting on the last page, so i'll get to it.

Because of all the people who responded in this thread in i am now convinced that it is not a good thing to make a new sheath for this one

It is also not my meaning to change the sheath so i got something to do, to me at the point i heard that it was not a Bugis blade, i thought it was the right thing to do, not thinking of the history that's maybe behind it.

Thanks for the kind words David, for myself i am never satisfied, but i hope with some practice i can do a better job, and i would love to have some nice Bali blades, so we both have something to wish

Alan,

I think in you're case, with the really beautiful keris you have, it's a nice thing to do, but for the keris i have, i don't know.
And for now i still have to try and make a couple of sheaths&hilts, and that is the first priority.
I think that there will always be lose blades, so i am afraid i never get finished

But never the less thanks for your suggestion!

Thanks Detlef, point taken, see above.

I will thank everyone for there contribution on this thread and keeping me on the right track!

best regards,
Ben

David · 14th January 2012, 06:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harley

I fully agree that the history is important, but what about the Bali keris that I've shown, the sheath i think was made for that blade,
OK the pendok was a bad repair, but it had a sort of history behind it.
It was a plain ugly sheath, but the woodwork was not bad at all, I've i had shared your opinion, then that wasn't a good choice either.
I can't tell you if this Javanese blade and sheath has a history, or it's just done to sell, it comes from a antique shop, so it could be both way's.

If i recall that Bali keris correctly that sheath appeared to be a bit of a mishmash of styles that probably was indeed thrown together to make the keris salable. The woodwork wasn't particularly good, but also didn't appear to be a very good example of any true Balinese style of dress. At best it was rough village work that didn't really adhere to the standards of the form it was attempting to emulate.
OTOH, this Celebes sheath appears to be fairly nicely crafted of some very nice wood. The fit looks custom to me and my personal assumption would be that this keris was in "service" as a Celebes keris. A keris found in a particular dress like this can fairly and rightfully be referred to as being a keris of that particular culture regardless of the origin of the blade. Again, this is fairly common practice. As was mentioned in a recent thread, the legendary keris Taming Sari was said to have been made in Jawa, but is now considered part of the royal regalia of the Sultan of Perak, Malaysia. It is dressed as a Malay keris and considered a Malay keris.
Your are obviously quite good at woodworking and i would hate to deprive you of the pleasure of creating a new sheath for this blade if that is your choice and desire. I certainly wish i had your skill set as i have a couple of underdressed Bali keris that i would love to create sheaths for, especially if i could produce a traditional looking Bali gayaman as accurately as you seem to be able to do. But if this "Celebes" keris were mine i would consider it a Celebes keris (though recognizing that it's blade does come from Jawa) and be done with it.

A. G. Maisey · 14th January 2012, 07:56 AM

Well put David, and just about my sentiments.

Ben can I make a suggestion?

Why not try making a keris from wood?

Several of my better items have alternate sets of dress, usually the old palace dress that they came in, which is invariably functional, quite plain, and sometimes with damage, then they have dress that I commissioned for them to the highest current standards. I usually keep these items with their modern dress, but have had copies of the blades made in wood to occupy the old dress --- something like the Japanese idea.

This is not a Javanese practice, its just something that pleases me. It means I can have the original dress on display, whilst keeping the keris or tombak itself safely stored.

14th January 2012, 12:36 AM	#6
Harley Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Nederland Posts: 83	Hi Detlef, I have tried to make the pictures, but i had to do it with my mobile cause the batteries of my camera are empty. I've these are no good i try to make better ones tomorrow. Thanks, i like the sheath also. best regards, Ben Attached Images

13th January 2012, 10:51 PM	#1
Harley Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Nederland Posts: 83	It looks like i am overruled here, i reckon i am the only one with this strange way of thinking But it definitely made me to give it a second taught! Thanks Marco regards, Ben

13th January 2012, 11:13 PM	#2
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,235	Hello Ben, Nice keris. The fit in the scabbard looks good. So I am also in favour of keeping it as it is. I would probably even not straighten the peksi unless it would give an inproper fitting of the hilt. As for turning this into a javanese keris ? Why bother, when there are plenty of nice javanese keris available. Expand your collection find a nice javanese keris in javanese dress. Best regards, Willem

13th January 2012, 11:15 PM	#3
Harley Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Nederland Posts: 83	David, I fully agree that the history is important, but what about the Bali keris that I've shown, the sheath i think was made for that blade, OK the pendok was a bad repair, but it had a sort of history behind it. It was a plain ugly sheath, but the woodwork was not bad at all, I've i had shared your opinion, then that wasn't a good choice either. I can't tell you if this Javanese blade and sheath has a history, or it's just done to sell, it comes from a antique shop, so it could be both way's. But these are the things that are so great about this forum, everyone give there honest opinion, and i respect that fully. regards, Ben

13th January 2012, 11:31 PM	#4
Harley Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Nederland Posts: 83	thanks Willem, I was going to straighten the pesi for the Javanese sheath and hilt, but when i read all the response it's not a good idea You know Willem not everyone is the same position, the only way for me to expand my collection is the way i do now, buying blades and make a sheath an urikan, maybe not the real thing, but for me it will do. My little collection exist of almost all Javanese keris, so that is not the point best regards, Ben

14th January 2012, 12:09 AM	#5
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,337	Hi Ben, can you give us a picture from up when the blade is inside the sheath? And as well a look inside the sheath mouth without blade? BTW, the Bugis sheath is very very nice! Best, Detlef

14th January 2012, 11:05 AM	#8
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	i even several times purposely purchased straight Jawanese blades only (possibly the original wrangka were damaged or purchased by other buyers) then sheathed them with Pattani tebeng sarungs to emulate what could have transpired in the past

14th January 2012, 12:15 PM	#9
Harley Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Nederland Posts: 83	Hi David, Thank you for your explanation, i agree with almost everything you've said. What i don't understand is that you don't find the old (Bali) sheath nicely made. I can understand that was a mix of styles, and i was ugly , but it was made properly, maybe my bad photo's has something to do with that. I haven't read the thread of keris Taming Sari yet, i am now on page 6 and was starting on the last page, so i'll get to it. Because of all the people who responded in this thread in i am now convinced that it is not a good thing to make a new sheath for this one It is also not my meaning to change the sheath so i got something to do, to me at the point i heard that it was not a Bugis blade, i thought it was the right thing to do, not thinking of the history that's maybe behind it. Thanks for the kind words David, for myself i am never satisfied, but i hope with some practice i can do a better job, and i would love to have some nice Bali blades, so we both have something to wish Alan, I think in you're case, with the really beautiful keris you have, it's a nice thing to do, but for the keris i have, i don't know. And for now i still have to try and make a couple of sheaths&hilts, and that is the first priority. I think that there will always be lose blades, so i am afraid i never get finished But never the less thanks for your suggestion! Thanks Detlef, point taken, see above. I will thank everyone for there contribution on this thread and keeping me on the right track! best regards, Ben

14th January 2012, 07:56 AM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	Well put David, and just about my sentiments. Ben can I make a suggestion? Why not try making a keris from wood? Several of my better items have alternate sets of dress, usually the old palace dress that they came in, which is invariably functional, quite plain, and sometimes with damage, then they have dress that I commissioned for them to the highest current standards. I usually keep these items with their modern dress, but have had copies of the blades made in wood to occupy the old dress --- something like the Japanese idea. This is not a Javanese practice, its just something that pleases me. It means I can have the original dress on display, whilst keeping the keris or tombak itself safely stored.