TEBU DAGGER in FISHTAIL SCABBARD

thinreadline · 10th January 2012, 12:12 PM

I have quite a lot of Tebu type daggers all in the usual scabbards however this one has a fishtail design . Have other members encountered this , does it have any significance ?

Lew · 10th January 2012, 04:09 PM

I think this just is an alternate scabbard style.

thinreadline · 10th January 2012, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lew

I think this just is an alternate scabbard style.

Fair enough , but I wonder if any members have seen them before like this ?

Lew · 10th January 2012, 05:13 PM

Yes I have seen a few of these over the years and are less common than the standard scabbard.

thinreadline · 10th January 2012, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lew

Yes I have seen a few of these over the years and are less common than the standard scabbard.

OK thats interesting ... its just the only one I have had in this style . I had hoped it might be a particular era or ethnic group, thanks for your comments.

VANDOO · 11th January 2012, 01:07 AM

THE FIRST OF THESE I SAW IN THE 1960'S HAD THE FISH TAIL OR THE REMAINS OF A TAIL. THE MORE RECENT ONES I HAVE SEEN NO LONGER BOTHER TO ADD THE FISH TAIL. SO IT MAY BE FROM A OLDER PERIOD OR FROM A AREA WHERE THEY STILL ADHERE TO THE OLD TRADITIONS. I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE FISH TAIL ORIGINALLY STOOD FOR BUT THE FISH IS A OLD CRISTIAN SYMBOL.

thinreadline · 11th January 2012, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

THE FIRST OF THESE I SAW IN THE 1960'S HAD THE FISH TAIL OR THE REMAINS OF A TAIL. THE MORE RECENT ONES I HAVE SEEN NO LONGER BOTHER TO ADD THE FISH TAIL. SO IT MAY BE FROM A OLDER PERIOD OR FROM A AREA WHERE THEY STILL ADHERE TO THE OLD TRADITIONS. I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE FISH TAIL ORIGINALLY STOOD FOR BUT THE FISH IS A OLD CRISTIAN SYMBOL.

Thanks Vandoo , that is helpful
Cheers.

chregu · 11th January 2012, 05:46 PM

hello together
here are my tebu Daggers

Lew · 11th January 2012, 06:04 PM

Here are two of mine. A dagger and a short sword.

thinreadline · 11th January 2012, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chregu

hello together
here are my tebu Daggers

Very nice
Thank you

thinreadline · 11th January 2012, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lew

Here are two of mine. A dagger and a short sword.

That short sword is brilliant ... what kind of dimensions is it ?

Martin Lubojacky · 12th January 2012, 09:45 AM

Yes, I also think it (fish tail) depends on era and the big role plays the area (clan or subclan). The Chregu´s dagger on the left is also very old (and nice !). Unfortunately, my "Sahel arm daggers" are a little bit more ordinary - see photo (only two of Tebbu style)
Regards
Martin

thinreadline · 12th January 2012, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Lubojacky

Yes, I also think it (fish tail) depends on era and the big role plays the area (clan or subclan). The Chregu´s dagger on the left is also very old (and nice !). Unfortunately, my "Sahel arm daggers" are a little bit more ordinary - see photo (only two of Tebbu style)
Regards
Martin

Thanks Martin , very nice collection though !

Andy Stevens · 17th January 2012, 05:07 PM

Just thort we'd chuck our five pennies worth into this thread with a picture of one of our Tebu's. This one has a nice age and a slightly different scabbard design than we've seen before. Incidently, the previous owner insisted the weapon was of North American origin; we of course tried to enlightend him but as an auctioner told him of its high plains history, we stood no chance!

thinreadline · 17th January 2012, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy Stevens

Just thort we'd chuck our five pennies worth into this thread with a picture of one of our Tebu's. This one has a nice age and a slightly different scabbard design than we've seen before. Incidently, the previous owner insisted the weapon was of North American origin; we of course tried to enlightend him but as an auctioner told him of its high plains history, we stood no chance!

How very interesting .... thats a real nice dagger and what a scabbard! Thanks for showing it
Richmond

Iain · 18th January 2012, 04:15 PM

Came across an older thread today with another couple fishtail examples.

http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=8079

thinreadline · 18th January 2012, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iain

Came across an older thread today with another couple fishtail examples.

http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=8079

Thanks Iain ... excellent .

TVV · 20th December 2012, 03:44 AM

I am attaching another example with a fishtail to add to the database.

Regards,
Teodor

TVV · 2nd June 2016, 05:43 AM

While these are associated with the Tebu, they seem to have been popular around lake Chad among other groups. In Smaldone, there is a picture of "Hausa daggers" from the collections of the Smithsonian, including one with a fish tail scabbard. The attribution of course is somewhat questionable.

I recently obtained a copy of the 1985 catalogue of Central African weapons from the Ethnographic Art Museum in Frankfurt. While the book is literally just a catalogue of items with black and white photos, it is very useful in one regard: it provides notes on the date and place the items were collected. For the purpose of this topic, there is a dagger very similar to the ones in this thread, and particularly similar to the one shown by Chregu in post #8. It is described as Sultan's knife from Goulfey, with a local name provided as well:"mogheo te me". We also know that it was collected during the Duke of Mecklenburg's expedition in Cameroon in 1910-1911, which at least establishes these daggers as early 20th century, potentially even earlier.

So, what does Sultan's Knife mean? Goulfey is nowadays a small town in Cameroon's far north, just South of Lake Chad. The German version of Wikipedia provides some information about the Sultanate of Goulfey, which prior to the colonization of Cameroon was a city state, vassal to the Kotoko Kingdom, which in turn was part of Kanem Bornu. Maybe these daggers were status items, or maybe the Sultan of Goulfey happened to give one to the Germans as a present, who knows.

DaveA · 2nd June 2016, 06:27 PM

Hello,

Here are photos of my Tebu (Tubu) dagger from the Daza tribe in northern Chad and Niger, and a map showing the general location of the Daza. The forked tail scabbard is made of a combination of leather and snake skin. This design is fairly rare and a source (long ago) told me that the forked "snake tongue" scabbard is a status symbol reserved for those with the highest prestige. OAL is 14 inches. The blade is slightly diamond in cross section, with stamped markings and parallel linear design features along the sides of the blade that appear on both sides.

- Dave A.

DaveA · 2nd June 2016, 06:37 PM

Very useful information! The term "Sultan's Dagger" aligns with what a source of mine said. I've posted pictures and info of my own tebu (tubu) elsewhere in this thread.

- Dave A.

DaveA · 2nd June 2016, 06:41 PM

Here is a link to more info about the Daza:

http://www.joshuaproject.net/peopctr...CD&rop3=102484

Sajen · 2nd June 2016, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveA

Here are photos of my Tebu (Tubu) dagger from the Daza tribe in northern Chad and Niger, ......... OAL is 14 inches. The blade is slightly diamond in cross section, with stamped markings and parallel linear design features along the sides of the blade that appear on both sides.

Hello Dave,

nice knife!

Be careful, I see active rust, it would be shame when the blade get eaten.

Regards,
Detlef

DaveA · 2nd June 2016, 08:57 PM

Those are old, original pics. Rust is long gone!

Sajen · 2nd June 2016, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveA

Those are old, original pics. Rust is long gone!

Good like this.

10th January 2012, 12:12 PM	#1
thinreadline Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Wirral Posts: 1,204	TEBU DAGGER in FISHTAIL SCABBARD I have quite a lot of Tebu type daggers all in the usual scabbards however this one has a fishtail design . Have other members encountered this , does it have any significance ? Attached Images

11th January 2012, 06:04 PM	#9
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Here are two of mine. A dagger and a short sword. Attached Images

12th January 2012, 09:45 AM	#12
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 845	Yes, I also think it (fish tail) depends on era and the big role plays the area (clan or subclan). The Chregu´s dagger on the left is also very old (and nice !). Unfortunately, my "Sahel arm daggers" are a little bit more ordinary - see photo (only two of Tebbu style) Regards Martin Attached Images

17th January 2012, 05:07 PM	#14
Andy Stevens Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: London Posts: 155	Just thort we'd chuck our five pennies worth into this thread with a picture of one of our Tebu's. This one has a nice age and a slightly different scabbard design than we've seen before. Incidently, the previous owner insisted the weapon was of North American origin; we of course tried to enlightend him but as an auctioner told him of its high plains history, we stood no chance! Attached Images

20th December 2012, 03:44 AM	#18
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,725	I am attaching another example with a fishtail to add to the database. Regards, Teodor Attached Images

10th January 2012, 04:09 PM	#2
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	I think this just is an alternate scabbard style.

10th January 2012, 05:13 PM	#4
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Yes I have seen a few of these over the years and are less common than the standard scabbard.

11th January 2012, 01:07 AM	#6
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THE FIRST OF THESE I SAW IN THE 1960'S HAD THE FISH TAIL OR THE REMAINS OF A TAIL. THE MORE RECENT ONES I HAVE SEEN NO LONGER BOTHER TO ADD THE FISH TAIL. SO IT MAY BE FROM A OLDER PERIOD OR FROM A AREA WHERE THEY STILL ADHERE TO THE OLD TRADITIONS. I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE FISH TAIL ORIGINALLY STOOD FOR BUT THE FISH IS A OLD CRISTIAN SYMBOL.

11th January 2012, 05:46 PM	#8
chregu Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: switzerland Posts: 298	hello together here are my tebu Daggers Attached Images

18th January 2012, 04:15 PM	#16
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,719	Came across an older thread today with another couple fishtail examples. http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=8079

2nd June 2016, 05:43 AM	#19
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,725	While these are associated with the Tebu, they seem to have been popular around lake Chad among other groups. In Smaldone, there is a picture of "Hausa daggers" from the collections of the Smithsonian, including one with a fish tail scabbard. The attribution of course is somewhat questionable. I recently obtained a copy of the 1985 catalogue of Central African weapons from the Ethnographic Art Museum in Frankfurt. While the book is literally just a catalogue of items with black and white photos, it is very useful in one regard: it provides notes on the date and place the items were collected. For the purpose of this topic, there is a dagger very similar to the ones in this thread, and particularly similar to the one shown by Chregu in post #8. It is described as Sultan's knife from Goulfey, with a local name provided as well:"mogheo te me". We also know that it was collected during the Duke of Mecklenburg's expedition in Cameroon in 1910-1911, which at least establishes these daggers as early 20th century, potentially even earlier. So, what does Sultan's Knife mean? Goulfey is nowadays a small town in Cameroon's far north, just South of Lake Chad. The German version of Wikipedia provides some information about the Sultanate of Goulfey, which prior to the colonization of Cameroon was a city state, vassal to the Kotoko Kingdom, which in turn was part of Kanem Bornu. Maybe these daggers were status items, or maybe the Sultan of Goulfey happened to give one to the Germans as a present, who knows. Attached Images

2nd June 2016, 06:27 PM	#20
DaveA Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 432	Snake tongue scabbard Hello, Here are photos of my Tebu (Tubu) dagger from the Daza tribe in northern Chad and Niger, and a map showing the general location of the Daza. The forked tail scabbard is made of a combination of leather and snake skin. This design is fairly rare and a source (long ago) told me that the forked "snake tongue" scabbard is a status symbol reserved for those with the highest prestige. OAL is 14 inches. The blade is slightly diamond in cross section, with stamped markings and parallel linear design features along the sides of the blade that appear on both sides. - Dave A. Attached Images

2nd June 2016, 06:37 PM	#21
DaveA Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 432	Thank you Very useful information! The term "Sultan's Dagger" aligns with what a source of mine said. I've posted pictures and info of my own tebu (tubu) elsewhere in this thread. - Dave A.

2nd June 2016, 06:41 PM	#22
DaveA Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 432	About the Daza Here is a link to more info about the Daza: http://www.joshuaproject.net/peopctr...CD&rop3=102484

2nd June 2016, 08:57 PM	#24
DaveA Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 432	rust Those are old, original pics. Rust is long gone!