Late Gothic Crossbows and Accouterments

Micke D · 10th January 2012, 03:59 PM

I must agree with Michael on this one, I don’t like it.
And I didn’t like it when I first saw it at Hermann-Historica either. Then it turned up in Holger Richters, Die Hornbogenarmbrust: Geschichte und Technik (Gebundene Ausgabe - Oktober 2006), where it still was said that it was a Scandinavian crossbow. I tried to convince Richter that the Scandinavian Saami crossbows had tillers somewhat similar to this but not until the 18th c, and there was certainly no people that could make horn bows left at that time, but he still thought that it was a Scandinavian crossbow.

“Both crossbows had identical (really identical, not only similar) elements:
The strongly reflex horn-bow, the stirrup, the cord binding and the trigger lever. Therefore both crossbows must have been made by the same maker or in the same workshop.”

Is it possible that you could show us the other crossbow that you say is identical to this one?
Do you know the dimensions of this crossbow?
Is it a wall-crossbow or a big handheld crossbow?

Here I must say that I have never seen a horn bow of this size with this much reflex, of course I know of the early crossbows like W1109 in Köln, but they are of another time and type.
Can you show me a similar reflexed bow?

The yellow-greenish cord binding looks suspect to me and most probably not original. The stirrup should be lashed to the bow with leather and not the cord binding that holds the bow. The stirrup doesn’t look like anything I have seen before, it’s very thin and the outside ridge looks like it’s pressed from the inside, it looks very suspect.

This is the first old (?) crossbow that I have seen with a tiller of oak.

“There can be no doubt that this is a gothic crossbow. As mentioned before all elements of this crossbow, except of the stock, are identical to a known typical central european crossbow. The iron side plates are nearly identical to the side plates on the Wall-crossbow you posted in thread #40.”

I’m sorry but I can’t see anything on this one that I would say is typical of a central European medieval crossbow. If it had had a bow shaped more like the one in thread #40, and of similar size, I would have it easier to accept it.

Mikael Dahlström,
Stockholm Lockbow Society,
Sweden

Matchlock · 10th January 2012, 06:26 PM

Excellent notations, Mikael, and exactly on the point!

All crossbow tillers I have seen were of either fruitwood or lime wood, except this one.

Best,
Michael

Micke D · 11th January 2012, 12:56 PM

Hi Michael!

Are you sure that it was lime wood? Any photo's?

I have seen many paintings with light coloured wellowish tillers that looks like they probably are too light to be fruitwood, but I havn't seen anything like it that has survived in any museum.

Mikael Dahlström,
Stockholm Lockbow Society,
Sweden

Matchlock · 11th January 2012, 07:20 PM

Hi Mikael,

I cannot seem to find the photos of the crossbow with that kind of wavy grain on the tiller that made me think of maple or limewood. So just forget about my idea. I also talked to my friend whose special collection I posted,

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...thic+crossbows

and he testified that all Gothic crossbow tillers he had ever seen were of fruitwood, mostly pear and cherry, including the three fine pieces he owns.

The white tillers you mentioned might have remained 'in the white', unvarnished, as many sources of period artwork (paintings) indicate, as well as the stocks of many early arquebuses. I'm also afraid none of those seems have survived, maybe partly due to later cleaning or restoring measures - or simply to hundreds of years of exposition to daylight.

It's so good to have a member with your range of experience here on the forum - so WELCOME!

Best,
Michael

Micke D · 12th January 2012, 04:02 PM

Hi Michael!

Thank you for the nice words and the welcome

, but I think I still have a lot more learning to do about my special interest, “Late Gothic horn bow Crossbows and Accouterments”!

I would like to have a collection like your friend has!!!

Do you think he is willing to testament it to me?

I guess that maple is a better choice than lime, I think that lime wood is probably a bit too soft for a crossbow tiller.

I probably know which crossbow you meant. The crossbow in the Osthofentor Museum in Soest has a tiller that has the striped look of maple, the same wood as used for violins and other instruments of that type. The tiller wood on this crossbow is stained to have a pear/cherry color and not the natural light color of maple, but I think that almost all crossbow tillers were stained during medieval times, (and maybe later also). This crossbow has some odd inlays and a unique type of dotted pattern on the bow, but I think it is authentic.

Micke Dahlström,
Stockholm Lockbow Society,
Sweden

Matchlock · 13th January 2012, 06:50 PM

Hi Micke,

You are completely right about the Soest crossbow, this was the one I meant.

Nevertheless, we know many paintings with white, unvarnished crossbow tillers and arquebuses. I am conviced that in times of war, wood on weapons was only meant to survive for few days or weeks, at best. Then the stocks were broken at best and replaced. Even in Thirty Yeras War paintings, we notice white stocks on both matchlock and wheellock guns. I guess, due to their quick consumption they were just not worth staining.
In my collection, a ca. 1645 Austrian matchlock musket is preserved with white (now heavily patinated) beechwood stock. It came from the Styrian castle of Schloss Frondsberg, from where about 15 similar muskets were sold via Tom Del Mar a couple of years ago, all in the same untouched condition with rust patinated iron parts and unstained stocks, with all the traces of original carving still visible.
A few images attached.

What's even more, I own the earliest known completelety preserved gun in the world, High Gothic, ca. 1400, the lock mechnism and hook being working time alterations of ca. 1430. Its crude oak stock much resembles a compemporary crossbow tiller (!), it is of heavily patinated brownish gray surface and shows no traces of staining whatsoever.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...oldest+handgun

Remember: crosssbow bolts (quarrels) were an absolute mass production and certainly not stained originally - and look at their dark colored oak or ash surfaces now!

As to limewood, it is not only soft and easy to carve but at the same time very tough. As I mentioned various times, most early 16th c. arquebus stocks were made of limewood, as their very special scent of incense denotes.

Best,
Michael

Matchlock · 13th January 2012, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Micke D

Hi Michael!

I would like to have a collection like your friend has!!!

Do you think he is willing to testament it to me?

Micke Dahlström,
Stockholm Lockbow Society,
Sweden

Hi Micke,

Most of his collection used to be in mine before we got to know each other and I decided on concentrating on earliest firearms and accouterments, which turned out to totally absorb my time, knowledge and money ...

I'll make contacts between the two of you though.

Best,
Michael

fernando · 13th January 2012, 11:20 PM

Oh, i wish i could find a genuine hilt for my katzbalger

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14555

13th January 2012, 06:50 PM	#6
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Micke, You are completely right about the Soest crossbow, this was the one I meant. Nevertheless, we know many paintings with white, unvarnished crossbow tillers and arquebuses. I am conviced that in times of war, wood on weapons was only meant to survive for few days or weeks, at best. Then the stocks were broken at best and replaced. Even in Thirty Yeras War paintings, we notice white stocks on both matchlock and wheellock guns. I guess, due to their quick consumption they were just not worth staining. In my collection, a ca. 1645 Austrian matchlock musket is preserved with white (now heavily patinated) beechwood stock. It came from the Styrian castle of Schloss Frondsberg, from where about 15 similar muskets were sold via Tom Del Mar a couple of years ago, all in the same untouched condition with rust patinated iron parts and unstained stocks, with all the traces of original carving still visible. A few images attached. What's even more, I own the earliest known completelety preserved gun in the world, High Gothic, ca. 1400, the lock mechnism and hook being working time alterations of ca. 1430. Its crude oak stock much resembles a compemporary crossbow tiller (!), it is of heavily patinated brownish gray surface and shows no traces of staining whatsoever. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...oldest+handgun Remember: crosssbow bolts (quarrels) were an absolute mass production and certainly not stained originally - and look at their dark colored oak or ash surfaces now! As to limewood, it is not only soft and easy to carve but at the same time very tough. As I mentioned various times, most early 16th c. arquebus stocks were made of limewood, as their very special scent of incense denotes. Best, Michael Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 13th January 2012 at 10:53 PM.

10th January 2012, 03:59 PM	#1
Micke D Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 41	I must agree with Michael on this one, I don’t like it. And I didn’t like it when I first saw it at Hermann-Historica either. Then it turned up in Holger Richters, Die Hornbogenarmbrust: Geschichte und Technik (Gebundene Ausgabe - Oktober 2006), where it still was said that it was a Scandinavian crossbow. I tried to convince Richter that the Scandinavian Saami crossbows had tillers somewhat similar to this but not until the 18th c, and there was certainly no people that could make horn bows left at that time, but he still thought that it was a Scandinavian crossbow. “Both crossbows had identical (really identical, not only similar) elements: The strongly reflex horn-bow, the stirrup, the cord binding and the trigger lever. Therefore both crossbows must have been made by the same maker or in the same workshop.” Is it possible that you could show us the other crossbow that you say is identical to this one? Do you know the dimensions of this crossbow? Is it a wall-crossbow or a big handheld crossbow? Here I must say that I have never seen a horn bow of this size with this much reflex, of course I know of the early crossbows like W1109 in Köln, but they are of another time and type. Can you show me a similar reflexed bow? The yellow-greenish cord binding looks suspect to me and most probably not original. The stirrup should be lashed to the bow with leather and not the cord binding that holds the bow. The stirrup doesn’t look like anything I have seen before, it’s very thin and the outside ridge looks like it’s pressed from the inside, it looks very suspect. This is the first old (?) crossbow that I have seen with a tiller of oak. “There can be no doubt that this is a gothic crossbow. As mentioned before all elements of this crossbow, except of the stock, are identical to a known typical central european crossbow. The iron side plates are nearly identical to the side plates on the Wall-crossbow you posted in thread #40.” I’m sorry but I can’t see anything on this one that I would say is typical of a central European medieval crossbow. If it had had a bow shaped more like the one in thread #40, and of similar size, I would have it easier to accept it. Mikael Dahlström, Stockholm Lockbow Society, Sweden

10th January 2012, 06:26 PM	#2
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Excellent notations, Mikael, and exactly on the point! All crossbow tillers I have seen were of either fruitwood or lime wood, except this one. Best, Michael

11th January 2012, 12:56 PM	#3
Micke D Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 41	Hi Michael! Are you sure that it was lime wood? Any photo's? I have seen many paintings with light coloured wellowish tillers that looks like they probably are too light to be fruitwood, but I havn't seen anything like it that has survived in any museum. Mikael Dahlström, Stockholm Lockbow Society, Sweden

11th January 2012, 07:20 PM	#4
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Mikael, I cannot seem to find the photos of the crossbow with that kind of wavy grain on the tiller that made me think of maple or limewood. So just forget about my idea. I also talked to my friend whose special collection I posted, http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...thic+crossbows and he testified that all Gothic crossbow tillers he had ever seen were of fruitwood, mostly pear and cherry, including the three fine pieces he owns. The white tillers you mentioned might have remained 'in the white', unvarnished, as many sources of period artwork (paintings) indicate, as well as the stocks of many early arquebuses. I'm also afraid none of those seems have survived, maybe partly due to later cleaning or restoring measures - or simply to hundreds of years of exposition to daylight. It's so good to have a member with your range of experience here on the forum - so WELCOME! Best, Michael Last edited by Matchlock; 11th January 2012 at 08:09 PM.

12th January 2012, 04:02 PM	#5
Micke D Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 41	Hi Michael! Thank you for the nice words and the welcome , but I think I still have a lot more learning to do about my special interest, “Late Gothic horn bow Crossbows and Accouterments”! I would like to have a collection like your friend has!!! Do you think he is willing to testament it to me? I guess that maple is a better choice than lime, I think that lime wood is probably a bit too soft for a crossbow tiller. I probably know which crossbow you meant. The crossbow in the Osthofentor Museum in Soest has a tiller that has the striped look of maple, the same wood as used for violins and other instruments of that type. The tiller wood on this crossbow is stained to have a pear/cherry color and not the natural light color of maple, but I think that almost all crossbow tillers were stained during medieval times, (and maybe later also). This crossbow has some odd inlays and a unique type of dotted pattern on the bow, but I think it is authentic. Micke Dahlström, Stockholm Lockbow Society, Sweden

13th January 2012, 11:20 PM	#8
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Oh, i wish i could find a genuine hilt for my katzbalger http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14555