Wilah nr2 hope you can help with identification

Jean · 10th January 2012, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

To anybody who is used to following Javanese standards of appraisal, the differences of style between these two blades (posts # 10 & 17) is immediately obvious and must place them into two totally separate categories.
If we look at the two straight blades shown in post # 25, stylistic variation is even greater.

When we come to consider physical size of blade, what we know is this:- keris from Bali, Blambangan, and Banten all have similar proportions. These are the "big" keris.

Hello Alan and PenangsangII,
Thank you for your very interesting insights!
Alan, from my untrained eye I see significant similarities between the blades shown in post # 10 (top) and # 25 (top) on one hand (pejetan, tikel alis, indistinct pamor), and those shown in post # 17 and # 25 (bottom) on the other hand. However I would interpret the differences between these 2 sets of blades as due to the age (the second set looks significantly younger than the first one), and the evolution of the workmanship and style from the smiths. I would be open to accept that the second set of blades was not made in the Cirebon area but copying the older blades.
IMO these "corok" blades constitute another category of "big" krisses besides those from Bali, Blambangan, and Banten.
PenangsangII, the Cirebon/ Ceribon krisses are also very appreciated by the Dutch collectors, probably because they are different and less common than the Central Javanese ones.
Best regards

A. G. Maisey · 11th January 2012, 12:20 PM

Jean, early this morning I wrote another detailed, analytical response to your most recent post, but I have thought on this matter during today, and have decided that it would be a total waste of time to post my response.

I see these blades as having significant differences.

You see the same blades as having significant similarities.

I see with eyes that have been trained in a Javanese way of looking at keris.

You see with the eyes of a collector schooled in Euro-centric values.

And we both only have images on a screen to look at.

Nope. I've wasted enough time on this.

However, I will leave you with these thoughts:-

During the 1400's Cirebon was just a little village, mainly occupied with fishing, at this time it was under the domination of Pajajaran. It became an Islamic enclave by the 1500's , broke away from Pajajaran and became a sultanate, and the recognized father of Cirebon, Sunan Gunungjati appeared on the scene.

By about 1660 Cirebon had fragmented into 3 or 4 little principalities, and Cirebon's next door neighbour, Banten , took advantage of this fragmentation and occupied Cirebon during the 1670's.

The princes of Cirebon didn't like this much, so they tried to form an alliance with Mataram, but then Mataram sold them out, and by the late 1670's the Dutch had control of Cirebon. In the early 1680's Cirebon signed a treaty with the Dutch. By the early 1700's Cirebon had become a Dutch protectorate. The Dutch divided the administration of Cirebon between 3 of the princes, who each set up their own little court.

In fact, there was no "great kingdom of Cirebon". It was always second rate, no link to Javanese royalty , no honour.

Interestingly, the people of Cirebon identify themselves as Javanese, not Sundanese, and speak a dialect of Javanese, not a dialect of Sundanese.

The Javanese link their respect for particular Tosan Aji to respect for the associated realm. Cirebon never really was a realm.

It had links to Banten, it had links to Mataram, but it was never really an independent strong, political entity.

Consider this:-

We can probably identify various keris dress styles with Cirebon, and I would theorise that these various styles could in turn be aligned to the various royal houses of Cirebon.

However, I believe that it is extremely unlikely that we can ever identify a unique blade style as being the heritage of Cirebon. I believe that when the necessary research has been completed , and completed by independent researchers in an objective manner, we will find that the nobility of Cirebon filled their unique keris scabbards and hilts with blades from various other places, or had their own smiths copy these various other styles.

Cirebon was next door to Banten and for a time was occupied by Banten. It is very probable that the Banten style was reflected in the blades used by Cirebon people, whether those blades originated from Banten, or from Cirebon itself.

Recently there has been a commercial push to glorify Cirebon. It is perfectly understandable that the mind of the collector should be attracted to the idea of the Cirebon keris. However, I believe that eventually we will recognize that the "Cirebon Keris" is in fact a keris that uses Cirebon dress, and a blade style from other places.

Why does Cirebon not get a mention in the old references?

Easy answer:- it was regarded as a nonentity which lacked honour, and had no unique blade style. This is the reason Cirebon gets lumped in with Pajajaran.

Thus, we can most certainly have a Cirebon keris, but we cannot have a Cirebon blade, in Javanese terms, "tangguh Cirebon", or as I am wont to phrase it, "Cirebon classification."

Further, look at the dates involved:- all this happened pre-1700's. By the 1700's Cirebon was well and truly under the Dutch thumb. It had never had the opportunity to develop anything , and then the Dutch fell out of the sky and smothered Cirebon.

Consider all this and then draw your own conclusions.

Marcokeris · 11th January 2012, 03:18 PM

Why the old handles Cirebon are so beautiful and fascinating?

A. G. Maisey · 11th January 2012, 08:33 PM

Yes, the old hilts usually attributed to Cirebon do display a high level of artistic excellence.

As to why this is so, I doubt that we will ever know. We could theorise about it all day, and one guess is probably as good as another.

My own personal theory is that the artistic expression shown in the Cirebon hilts, and in other areas of Cirebon art and craft, was generated by the twofold factors of external Chinese influence, and a resurgence of Javanese values, similar to what happened in Kartosuro when Dutch overlordship threatened Javanese culture.

These influences, combined with a spirit of competition between the royal houses administering Cirebon resulted in the production of the beautiful hilts that we now associate with this area.

Marcokeris · 11th January 2012, 10:13 PM

Very nice theory

Thanks i like it

PenangsangII · 12th January 2012, 02:13 AM

I think Cirebon's so-called keris is unique in its own way. The mix of various cultures - Sunda, Jawanese, Malay, Makassar, Bugis, Sumatra, Arab, Chinese etc has made the keris culture in Cirebon as such, whilst Mataram remains the center of Jawanese culture.

To think of it again, IMHO even the great Majapahit empire also consisted of a lot of cultures as they are more open, similarly Demak and to certain level Cirebon. Mataram since its inception wanted to be in seclusion to avoid outside influences. this is understandable as Panembahan Senopati came from a family of "no honor" - he was just a descendant of a peasant who pretended to be of Majapahit linage - this is the way Jawanese outside Indonesia see it.

David · 12th January 2012, 03:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

Mataram since its inception wanted to be in seclusion to avoid outside influences. this is understandable as Panembahan Senopati came from a family of "no honor" - he was just a descendant of a peasant who pretended to be of Majapahit linage - this is the way Jawanese outside Indonesia see it.

"Honor" can certainly be a matter of perspective. In the back-stabbing world of power and royal courts i'm not convinced it is always possible to establish "honor". That said, are you truly capable of speaking for the perspective of all Jawanese living outside Indonesia?

tunggulametung · 12th January 2012, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Yes, the old hilts usually attributed to Cirebon do display a high level of artistic excellence.

As to why this is so, I doubt that we will ever know. We could theorise about it all day, and one guess is probably as good as another.

My own personal theory is that the artistic expression shown in the Cirebon hilts, and in other areas of Cirebon art and craft, was generated by the twofold factors of external Chinese influence, and a resurgence of Javanese values, similar to what happened in Kartosuro when Dutch overlordship threatened Javanese culture.

These influences, combined with a spirit of competition between the royal houses administering Cirebon resulted in the production of the beautiful hilts that we now associate with this area.

There's an interesting (not popular) theory about the history of maritime South East Asia first wave Ismalization that connected and dates back to Zheng He expedition, which also speculates that (if I remember correctly) most if not all of Wali Songo (incl. Gunung Jati) and even Raden Patah of Demak are Muslim Chinese/descent, hence the strong Chinese influence in pesisiran arts. I always thought that once the Javanese keris are similar to pesisiran keris in old European collection and the smaller distinct style comes later, do you think I'm at lost on this matter?

11th January 2012, 12:20 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	Jean, early this morning I wrote another detailed, analytical response to your most recent post, but I have thought on this matter during today, and have decided that it would be a total waste of time to post my response. I see these blades as having significant differences. You see the same blades as having significant similarities. I see with eyes that have been trained in a Javanese way of looking at keris. You see with the eyes of a collector schooled in Euro-centric values. And we both only have images on a screen to look at. Nope. I've wasted enough time on this. However, I will leave you with these thoughts:- During the 1400's Cirebon was just a little village, mainly occupied with fishing, at this time it was under the domination of Pajajaran. It became an Islamic enclave by the 1500's , broke away from Pajajaran and became a sultanate, and the recognized father of Cirebon, Sunan Gunungjati appeared on the scene. By about 1660 Cirebon had fragmented into 3 or 4 little principalities, and Cirebon's next door neighbour, Banten , took advantage of this fragmentation and occupied Cirebon during the 1670's. The princes of Cirebon didn't like this much, so they tried to form an alliance with Mataram, but then Mataram sold them out, and by the late 1670's the Dutch had control of Cirebon. In the early 1680's Cirebon signed a treaty with the Dutch. By the early 1700's Cirebon had become a Dutch protectorate. The Dutch divided the administration of Cirebon between 3 of the princes, who each set up their own little court. In fact, there was no "great kingdom of Cirebon". It was always second rate, no link to Javanese royalty , no honour. Interestingly, the people of Cirebon identify themselves as Javanese, not Sundanese, and speak a dialect of Javanese, not a dialect of Sundanese. The Javanese link their respect for particular Tosan Aji to respect for the associated realm. Cirebon never really was a realm. It had links to Banten, it had links to Mataram, but it was never really an independent strong, political entity. Consider this:- We can probably identify various keris dress styles with Cirebon, and I would theorise that these various styles could in turn be aligned to the various royal houses of Cirebon. However, I believe that it is extremely unlikely that we can ever identify a unique blade style as being the heritage of Cirebon. I believe that when the necessary research has been completed , and completed by independent researchers in an objective manner, we will find that the nobility of Cirebon filled their unique keris scabbards and hilts with blades from various other places, or had their own smiths copy these various other styles. Cirebon was next door to Banten and for a time was occupied by Banten. It is very probable that the Banten style was reflected in the blades used by Cirebon people, whether those blades originated from Banten, or from Cirebon itself. Recently there has been a commercial push to glorify Cirebon. It is perfectly understandable that the mind of the collector should be attracted to the idea of the Cirebon keris. However, I believe that eventually we will recognize that the "Cirebon Keris" is in fact a keris that uses Cirebon dress, and a blade style from other places. Why does Cirebon not get a mention in the old references? Easy answer:- it was regarded as a nonentity which lacked honour, and had no unique blade style. This is the reason Cirebon gets lumped in with Pajajaran. Thus, we can most certainly have a Cirebon keris, but we cannot have a Cirebon blade, in Javanese terms, "tangguh Cirebon", or as I am wont to phrase it, "Cirebon classification." Further, look at the dates involved:- all this happened pre-1700's. By the 1700's Cirebon was well and truly under the Dutch thumb. It had never had the opportunity to develop anything , and then the Dutch fell out of the sky and smothered Cirebon. Consider all this and then draw your own conclusions.

11th January 2012, 03:18 PM	#3
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	Why the old handles Cirebon are so beautiful and fascinating?

11th January 2012, 08:33 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	Yes, the old hilts usually attributed to Cirebon do display a high level of artistic excellence. As to why this is so, I doubt that we will ever know. We could theorise about it all day, and one guess is probably as good as another. My own personal theory is that the artistic expression shown in the Cirebon hilts, and in other areas of Cirebon art and craft, was generated by the twofold factors of external Chinese influence, and a resurgence of Javanese values, similar to what happened in Kartosuro when Dutch overlordship threatened Javanese culture. These influences, combined with a spirit of competition between the royal houses administering Cirebon resulted in the production of the beautiful hilts that we now associate with this area.

11th January 2012, 10:13 PM	#5
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	Very nice theory Thanks i like it

12th January 2012, 02:13 AM	#6
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	I think Cirebon's so-called keris is unique in its own way. The mix of various cultures - Sunda, Jawanese, Malay, Makassar, Bugis, Sumatra, Arab, Chinese etc has made the keris culture in Cirebon as such, whilst Mataram remains the center of Jawanese culture. To think of it again, IMHO even the great Majapahit empire also consisted of a lot of cultures as they are more open, similarly Demak and to certain level Cirebon. Mataram since its inception wanted to be in seclusion to avoid outside influences. this is understandable as Panembahan Senopati came from a family of "no honor" - he was just a descendant of a peasant who pretended to be of Majapahit linage - this is the way Jawanese outside Indonesia see it.