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8th January 2012, 05:57 PM
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#1 | |
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Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
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Salaams Lew, For now since we are without precise proof of technology transfer from East to West, I think it wise to leave the facts so far discussed on Forum record and with the proviso that should further evidence arise it can be debated afresh. Bucklers and Swords (Terrs wa Sayf) are inherent in the study of Omani Arms as they were in use against the Abbasids in the 8th Century A.D. and continue today in the traditional "Omani Funun". Notwithstanding that; the thread develops quite alarmingly with the discovery of a significant Algerian bladestamp mark on what was considered as a Saudia or Yemeni Sayf. On the table we also have an interesting peripheral "Kaskara-Sayf" from Atlantia. The main thrust of the discussion, however, turns toward the dilemma of the (Omani) European Trade Blade. Fact or fiction?  Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
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8th January 2012, 06:38 PM
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#2 | |
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Location: Olomouc
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Here, again, one of the more compelling examples. http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...is-a-good-deal Keep in mind what I have access to is simply what is online via Google or similar, there are many swords held in private collections around the world by individuals who may have never released photographs online. Chances are there are many more. Even if some of the wolf marks are local copies, you have to account for where the idea to use the mark came from. Whether period travelers and Europeans present in the area noted it or not, I think it is pretty undeniable European blades were present in the area. But I feel like I've made these points before... The exact time periods and routes these blades arrived from, are out of my area I'm afraid. But I look forward to those that are continuing to research it. All the best, Iain |
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8th January 2012, 06:58 PM
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#3 | |
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Salaams Iain, Yes thats fine but they are not Omani European Trade Blades..what they are is African European Trade Blades. They are entirely different blades. The Omani blade of so called approximate 18thC introduction and superceding the Omani Old Battle Sayf is a complete all in one blade hilt pommel steel weapon with fullers (one two or three) moreover it is flexible to 90 degrees returning to straight immediately. Blades like the one at your reference are thicker blades normally ending in a point and not flexible say other than perhaps 10% ~ The addition of the running wolf is interesting and I have seen an Omani blade with a similar mark but caution ... Where was the mark carried out; locally or where? I suspect somewhere in Africa to bolster the price in the case of the African weapons and in the case of the Omani example in the Muscat Museum probably in Oman..and noted in the Museum as a fake mark. The running wolf is after all the simplest to copy. The blade at your reference looks like one of the Saudia, Yemeni (or possibly African)or perhaps Algerian blades I have previously noted and at #1 to this thread and discussed at # 176... mainly concerning Michael Blalocks sword indicating an Algerian provenance to its blademark. No evidence whatsoever save some comments quite possibly copied in error and duplicated in a few quite prestigious publications in the last century mention anything to do with Omani European Trade Blades... emphasis on Omani since African Trade Blades are well known. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 8th January 2012 at 07:12 PM. Reason: Text corrections. |
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8th January 2012, 07:20 PM
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#4 |
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Location: Olomouc
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Hi Ibrahiim,
If you want to make that distinction (and I don't worry I understand why because of the functionality needed for the dance you commented on a lot previously  ) there has to be a reason what you are terming African trade blades are showing up in Omani mounts and while I certainly don't have the cultural insight you have, I am a little lost then as to why, if the flexibility is so important, stiffer blades seem to have been used as well... Is the flexibility what makes the sword truly Omani in your opinion? Because judging from the examples I'm posting there seems to be no problem with Omanis using stiffer blades...One thought that immediately strikes me is if the flexible blades are a local development from the stiffer general trade blades? And of course that was part of my point with the wolf marks, they are easy to copy and show clear European influence in some of these blades. Just in case I never added this one earlier in the thread, here's another one that sold a while back at a Czech auction house. http://www.antiq.cz/aukce/m-n/katalog6-98/en/528.html |
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8th January 2012, 07:43 PM
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#5 | |
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Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
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Salaams Iain ... Your reference is like #1 to this thread and could be by origin African Red Sea (Yemeni or Saudia) or related to Mamluke or an Algerian derivative. It apparently has the wolf too... like other examples I have handled the wolf is a diversionary mark intended to hoist the price. The description on your reference states and I quote: "Sword blade from a cavalry sword, Passau wolf mark in the lower part of the double-edged blade, point rounded later, wooden grip bound with leather and ornamental silver wire, made in central Africa, blade - 16th/17th cent., hilt - early 19th century, length 97 cm, length of blade 78 cm" Unquote. The information is very sketchy and only half believable. The only thing vaguelly Omani about this Sayf is the hilt. Though I dont have the sword in front of me I can see that it is as the # 1 in style... Thick inflexible blade with a point. Omani blades are by definition spatulate tipped and very springy... as I say a 90 degree bend is normal. Regarding the New Omani Sayf of circa 18th C and said to be a European Trade Blade ~The vital ingredient of these Omani Sayfs is their flexibility, spatulate tip and on a long hilt. If it is stiff or pointed it is not Omani. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi |
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8th January 2012, 08:15 PM
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#6 | |
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Cheers, Iain |
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8th January 2012, 08:24 PM
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#7 | |
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Ibrahiim. Afternote ~ That does not rule out a sword being hilted with an Omani long handle and used by an Omani trader, slaver or individual on the African coast in the Zanzibar hub. I am certain you will agree with that possibility though obviously that does not qualify the weapon as Omani proper. I think they qualify as hybrid being a crossbreed of the above styles. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 9th January 2012 at 04:40 PM. |
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8th January 2012, 08:28 PM
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#8 | |
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I have to agree that some clarity is needed here Ibrahiim. Could I expand on Iain's request and ask that for those who haven't followed this epic threads many pages as closely as those heavily involved, could we (I) possibly have a summary of the points that you are proposing, set out as concise and short a list as possible? Thanks Gene |
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Hybrid Mode
