Wilah nr 4 for identification

A. G. Maisey · 6th January 2012, 09:14 PM

In the pic, the stain looks OK on my screen. I doubt that I'd play with it.

As for dress, I don't know. If I had this in my hand and needed to dress it, I'd probably opt for sandang walikat, maybe an East Jawa sandang walikat, but I suspect that you may not be able to do an SW, because you need to use a segrek, and this is a specialist tool that has no counterpart amongst western tools.

You could probably do a look-a-like SW by making the gandar section in two halves and gluing together and into the atasan. You'd have the form, but not the correct construction, because a sandang walikat is carved from a single piece of wood.

Maybe a scaled down East Jawa gayaman would work OK too.

Harley · 6th January 2012, 09:42 PM

OK, thanks then i leave it as it is.

I have seen a wile ago a picture of a walikat sheath, but that one has a lose gandar,or is the word sandang meaning that it is from one piece?
I find the idea of a walikat sheath rather nice, it's a whole different shape.
When i was reading the old topic's i came across a picture of a segrek, till then i had now idea what kind of tool it was.

regards,
Ben

A. G. Maisey · 6th January 2012, 10:14 PM

David, yes, only women attached to a court were expected to kill themselves in the event that the court was overrun by an enemy. That's the purpose of the patrem:- to kill oneself.

Ben, 'sandang', or properly 'sandhang', means 'clothing'. 'Walikat' means 'rib'. Thus, "rib dress". Maybe because it resembles a rib, maybe because it is most often worn under a jacket, next to the ribs.

In East Jawa they often make SW with a separate gandar, and sometimes a pendok, in Central Jawa it should be one piece.

Harley · 6th January 2012, 10:25 PM

Thank you Alan, for the explanation and I'll see what i can make of it.

What you said about a patrem is very interesting, i never heard that

regards,
Ben

Jean · 7th January 2012, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harley

Thank you Alan, for the explanation and I'll see what i can make of it.
regards,
Ben

Ben,
These pictures show 2 examples of sandang walikat sheaths (in one piece)matching with a short blade like yours.
Regards

Harley · 7th January 2012, 11:03 AM

Thank you again Jean, these are very nice examples to work from, i hope i can come a little in the near of these ones, but it will be very difficult to make in one piece, the only advantage is that the blade is not so long.

regards,
Ben

David · 7th January 2012, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harley

What you said about a patrem is very interesting, i never heard that

A agree, this is also the first time i have heard this and it is very interesting indeed...

Sajen · 7th January 2012, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harley

What you said about a patrem is very interesting, i never heard that

The third one who never heard this!

Very interesting indeed.

Regards,

Detlef

Sajen · 7th January 2012, 04:14 PM

Alan,

could be this keris by a blade length (without pesi) from 22,5 cm a genuine patrem keris?

Regards,

Detlef

Marcokeris · 7th January 2012, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Alan,

could be this keris by a blade lenght (without pesi) from 22,5 cm as genuine patrem keris?

Regards,

Detlef

Nice! IMO the blade could comes from another more long. I see the blade good for magic, not for woman (...but often magic and women come together

)

sirek · 7th January 2012, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Alan,

could be this keris by a blade lenght (without pesi) from 22,5 cm as genuine patrem keris?

Regards,

Detlef

Found this schedule once on the net. (can not confirm if this is true

)
LAME= BLADE
1 CM = 0.39 inch

PenangsangII · 7th January 2012, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

David, yes, only women attached to a court were expected to kill themselves in the event that the court was overrun by an enemy. That's the purpose of the patrem:- to kill oneself.

Ben, 'sandang', or properly 'sandhang', means 'clothing'. 'Walikat' means 'rib'. Thus, "rib dress". Maybe because it resembles a rib, maybe because it is most often worn under a jacket, next to the ribs.

In East Jawa they often make SW with a separate gandar, and sometimes a pendok, in Central Jawa it should be one piece.

Alan, by this statement, wouldnt it be proper also to say that all genuinely old made patrems are kraton empu made?

7th January 2012, 04:14 PM	#9
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,409	Alan, could be this keris by a blade length (without pesi) from 22,5 cm a genuine patrem keris? Regards, Detlef Attached Images Last edited by Sajen; 7th January 2012 at 08:14 PM.

6th January 2012, 09:14 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	In the pic, the stain looks OK on my screen. I doubt that I'd play with it. As for dress, I don't know. If I had this in my hand and needed to dress it, I'd probably opt for sandang walikat, maybe an East Jawa sandang walikat, but I suspect that you may not be able to do an SW, because you need to use a segrek, and this is a specialist tool that has no counterpart amongst western tools. You could probably do a look-a-like SW by making the gandar section in two halves and gluing together and into the atasan. You'd have the form, but not the correct construction, because a sandang walikat is carved from a single piece of wood. Maybe a scaled down East Jawa gayaman would work OK too.

6th January 2012, 09:42 PM	#2
Harley Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Nederland Posts: 83	OK, thanks then i leave it as it is. I have seen a wile ago a picture of a walikat sheath, but that one has a lose gandar,or is the word sandang meaning that it is from one piece? I find the idea of a walikat sheath rather nice, it's a whole different shape. When i was reading the old topic's i came across a picture of a segrek, till then i had now idea what kind of tool it was. regards, Ben

6th January 2012, 10:14 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	David, yes, only women attached to a court were expected to kill themselves in the event that the court was overrun by an enemy. That's the purpose of the patrem:- to kill oneself. Ben, 'sandang', or properly 'sandhang', means 'clothing'. 'Walikat' means 'rib'. Thus, "rib dress". Maybe because it resembles a rib, maybe because it is most often worn under a jacket, next to the ribs. In East Jawa they often make SW with a separate gandar, and sometimes a pendok, in Central Jawa it should be one piece.

6th January 2012, 10:25 PM	#4
Harley Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Nederland Posts: 83	Thank you Alan, for the explanation and I'll see what i can make of it. What you said about a patrem is very interesting, i never heard that regards, Ben

7th January 2012, 11:03 AM	#6
Harley Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Nederland Posts: 83	Thank you again Jean, these are very nice examples to work from, i hope i can come a little in the near of these ones, but it will be very difficult to make in one piece, the only advantage is that the blade is not so long. regards, Ben