How to id a European kaskara blade?

[Mefidk]

Thanks for the further input Jim - the marking is a puzzle is it not!

My feeling about the figures you show is that whilst the marks are not perfectly represented, 3 of 4 are clearly very similar to the original they are supposed to be copied from, but our focus mark is really a stretch. Given that the other examples we have of this mark are all relatively similar, would we expect that the artist messed the original up so badly but that everyone else could copy his work so well? So I'm with you on this, not even picasso would produce representation of the fly mark like this. The long vertical marks (staff) are also on all the examples I've seen so far, which does not bear any similarity to any of the European stamps - so I'm inclined to think this mark represents something else.

Poking around in the forum threads I came accross this one: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11950

In this thread RDGAC posted four kaskara from his museum collection, one of which both bears the 'comet', similar fuller and size of blade and has an identical cross-guard to my rusty example. Unfortunately this one was precisely the one that did not come with any guarantee of date collected But if it was as suggested in the early to mid 1880s, then we have an example of the mark on a kaskara with a date comensurate with Briggs' takouba example.

I wonder if RDGAC has dug up any more information since this thread, it would be extremely useful?

Looking at the hilts on both my swords - the croc grip kaskara has an almost identical guard to RDG examples 1 & 2, but none of these look like they are formed from four parts (no X, although his No3 example does have one), so I wonder if that can be used as a reliable benchmark for dating? As Iain noted the croc kaskara guard is of high quality and does appear to me to be old. Incidentaly one of the RDG swords also has the iron peg clearly visible that was not used on my rusty sword's hilt, hence why I think the grip was perhaps replaced at some time.

Chris

[Iain]

Typed this up in the train today but hadn't seen Chris' last post (excellent points to be sure!), still I'll post these few musings...

This is developing into a fascinating discussion! Not just about these two swords but as always, back to the all pervasive questions of trade, regional politics, steel and marks.
To focus for a minute on the two sword that are the subject of this thread, in my opinion the well aged blade is likely 19th and here is why:

a. The tang is formed particularly well

b. It has likely been rehilted and has thus done some time in the field (note Chris' excellent observation about the unused tang hole)

c. The patina (dark patina) is consistent with some age.

d. The form and execution of the fuller is smoother and has much smoother edges than the croc sword.

Is it a European blade? I am not sure. I agree ricassos are a pretty surefire way to identify the trade blades, but does it rule out anything without a ricasso? Again, I am simply not sure. As usual we have a small body of evidence and incomplete records to go on. This particular blade strikes me as something of above average quality. Granted I am only going on photos, but sometimes I just have a feeling. I have seen a few other (notably Kull) blades that don't have a ricasso block... So I'm just not sure.

Touching briefly on the mark, first, thanks to Jim for nudging my memory with the scan from Briggs! Seen in this context the origin from the "fly" and the two marks labeled as figure B I think there is something of a rude progression there. Regarding the age and ethnic attribution of the mark... I am always hesitant of taking some pretty sparse data (a few captured takouba in the early 1900s) and trying to read a lot into it, much as I liked to just for the sake of some structure! I am then leary of IDing this as a firstly Tuareg mark that transmitted to Darfur. Maybe it was, or maybe it went the other way. This is the maddening thing about marks, applied locally they give almost no trail based on blades or mounts to say who first started using them first. For example looking through Morel's essay did not turn up the mark and he was fairly comprehensive in his studies and examined quite a few examples. That leads me to think this mark was perhaps not particulary common on takouba, but we do see it popping up a lot on kaskara! The short version is I don't know but I'm getting really, really curious.

[Mefidk]

sorry in all the excitement about the rusty blade I failed to point this out (and I now see the pictures were not clear), but the croc kaskara does indeed have a ricasso - can we therefore assume this one is a trade blade?

Attached a better picture

I'm not sure if it will help this discussion but I could start another thread with images of the other pieces than came with these two and Iains takouba (when I have photos of them all). Unfortunately I know nothing more than they all came up for sale in the same auction lot.

[Iain]

I have to admit I'm struggling to make out the ricasso but that might just be the angle and the overhang of the guard. Right now I just think I'm seeing the end of the fuller? Most likely I'm just blind though.

Just a quick note, that as this is the current kaskara thread going on the forum, might be a good place to put this short article I ran across today. Some interesting terminology at the end.

http://news.sudanvisiondaily.com/det...?rsnpid=203766

[Mefidk]

No your not going blind, it is really difficult to see, bad picture.

The fuller also has me confused - it is poorly done, and it actually extends into the ricasso which looks to have been all but ground away leaving only very faint marks on both sides of the blade. Not knowing enough about trade blades I wonder if any came without a fuller and possibly some enterprising bladesmith corrected the 'mistake'? That would explain the incongruity between blade quality and the messy fuller.
I will try to replace the picture with one using incident light to bring it out the ricasso marks - then again I might be wishfully seeing things that turn out to be trickily placed horizontal scratches

[Iain]

Looking forward to the better picture, but I think I see it now, was looking in the wrong area.

Looking again I can clearly see the thick, squared off edge and were it slopes and lookes like it has been ground down. Unless I am going blind I'm pretty sure I see little squared off corners on the top and bottom surface of the blade there, right on the edge.

[Mefidk]

Managed a better picture - but now looking at it blown up like this I think I'm leading you up the garden path. No idea what this is but it looks like incisions rather than a shoulder