Kattara for comments

[ariel]

[QUOTE=Ibrahiim al Balooshi

....since it began here 500 years before the European book was written on the system that it probably evolved from Oman between the 8th and 13th Century A.D.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.[/QUOTE]


Well, don't you think that it might be more fair to compare apples to apples, i.e. date of publication of the first Omani book on the subject?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by ariel

Well, don't you think that it might be more fair to compare apples to apples, i.e. date of publication of the first Omani book on the subject?

Salaams Ariel,

You want me to compare the publication of the first Omani book on the subject ~ I assume you mean with the 13thC European work and upon the basis of fairness?

I think the answer is no for a number of reasons ~

First, that your question assumes perhaps a competitive argument between the two systems whereas mine is a theory for discussion in that the two evolved one from the other in keeping with my conclusive statement at the end of my post viz;

"I point to the Holy Land and the Crusades, the Omani trade links, known camel routes, sea trade routes, practices, pilgrimages, pageants and wars combined with what we know of the technique and its identical Omani name in Lebanon 40 years ago of "Sayf wa Terrs" and therefore I suggest, that since it* began here 500 years before the European book was written on the system** that it probably evolved from Oman between the 8th and 13th Century A.D".

* it refers to the Omani system.
** refers to the European development.

Second, that whereas there is the 13th C European Fightbook on the European system M.133. No document appears so far on the Eastern technique anywhere near the same time frame if at all. Thus in comparing the techniques I have scrutinized the European style and liaised with the European Forum on the subject therefore I report that the similarities are too close to ignore (though always admitting that the evidence as in all forensic research is very difficult to uncover.) Would you have me give up because there is no Arabic Textbook?

Third, your assumption based on the comparison of publications is curious. How many books have been written on the European trade blade structure of circa the 18thC ?... None. Where is the documentary evidence on precise wootz manufacturing technology?... none..The list is endless but illustrates my point that simply relying solely upon books of reference will get us nowhere, however, placing these subjects under the microscope of decent research and proper discussion will help shine a light into the dim corners of antiquity that so far have been blind alleyways.
This is surely the essence of our Forum.

As you probably know ancient mediaeval scripts often written by the clergy offer clues, however, on the Arabian Peninsula they are few and far between... and I fear in this case are non existent, moreover, what we do have is a played out performance structure passing down the message of "life at the time" through the Funoon accompanied by music and poetry which I describe as "the traditions". Thus we are able to view the two styles ~ One in a book for the West and the other as a pageant for the East. In addition the western technique has continued into martial art form till today and in the case of the Lebanese System it resurfaced about 2 centuries ago but has since died out(1970) and was known by the identical Omani name of " Sayf wa Terrs."
I believe that was a clue Dr Watson?

If there is an inherent weakness in my theory it could be in the fact that the Lebanese fight style was dormant and only revived 2 centuries ago but died in 1970, however, I believe it was born from passed down and possibly unwritten treatise and perhaps some vague references linked to the Knights in that region during the crusades.. The Georgian concept fits well into the general mix.

Therefore, I argue (in Forum Terms) for the transmission of technology from Oman via the Jerusalem/Holy Land "cog or hub" of this ancient system into both Europe and Georgia.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Note; The Omani style evolved from the Abbasid occupation and wars during the 8th/9thC. A.D. The Abbasid sword has been shown to be very similar in almost a dozen ways to the Old Omani Battle Sword illustrated on this thread at # 5 The Abbasid were great copiers of the Greek style of most parts of life: architecture, mathematics, science and weaponry etc...

I do not say that the Omanis developed in isolation the form of "buckler and sword" but that they evolved their own development of the technique probably from Abbasid influence (originally Greek) and may well have passed that on as described...and on to exponents who also modified and evolved their own styles in due course.

[ariel]

Hi Ibrahim,
Thanks for the detailed response.
IMHO, the theory you are proposing falls under the category : "True, true, and unrelated"

Multiple cultures had swords and shields, even when the blades were made of copper and bent under minimal effort. Thus, any warrior would avoid direct blade-to-blade contact while attempting to damage the opponent's sword. Thus, parrying with a shield ( of whatever side and form) must have been the routine practice from times immemorial all over the world. I do not think one can pinpoint the origin of that practice to any specific locality with even a minimal degree of certainty.
Fencing books were popular in Europe for the past several centuries. It is a shame and a sorrow that only Mamluks bothered to compose manuals on military techniques and training. This is why from time to time this Forum and dozens other swordplay-interested groups raise a heated discussion on the use of shamshir or yataghan. As they say, if it is not written, it does not exist.
Crucible steel, indeed, was a mystery, and the europeans were not particularly interested in it, because of their different concept of military structure, artistic value or sanctity of the blade and their scientific/technological thrust, whereby they bypassed wootz in favor of equally good, but infinitely cheaper, quality steel. In the West , wootz remained a curiosity, an Everest that had to be conquered simply because it was there.

However, when in the 19th century the Europeans became interested in crucible steel, there were several articles in specialty journals or full books ( Crivelli, Anosov, Belyaev etc). For that, they ( or their representatives) had to travel to the East to actually observe the manufacturing process, because there was no Indian or Persian written recipe.

Overall, I admire your attempts to research the origins of Omani swords, but disagree with some of your too-far-reaching conclusions.

With best wishes.

[Lew]

Gentlemen

Since there is no real proof that the European style of sword and buckler evolved from Omani style can we just conclude that they evolved separately from each other and leave it at that? It seems to me that that this type of fighting system Was designed with a great deal of strategic thought and basic common sense by both cultures which often used in duels as a way to settle various personal desputes. In my opinion both cultures developed these systems out of necessity in order to deal certain aspects of there warrior based societies.

[Atlantia]

Thought you might be interested in the following.
A relic Kattara showing how the familiar short tang of the 'Kaskara' type trade blade is extended to the Omani block pommel.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I answer Atlantia below...Shukran

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Thought you might be interested in the following.
A relic Kattara showing how the familiar short tang of the 'Kaskara' type trade blade is extended to the Omani block pommel.

Salaams Atlantia, We started out on this thread (Kattara for Comment) with the wrong terminology since during the discussion it has been proven that the straight sword is the Sayf and the curved is the Kattara therefor we are looking at a Sayf... and it is very interesting as it is clearly an old version... and as you say a Kaskara conversion. I suppose its a Kaskara- Sayf !
This is a most interesting morph/conversion and we assume it would have been tooled up with an Omani long hilt. I have no idea how to conclude its trade blade provenance or if it is locally made? I think that what we have here, however interesting, is only a converted hilt; no more no less.

I can imagine a Sayf or Kaskara on the edge of the Omani periphery being converted to Sayf, like your example... That is entirely plausible. I would, however, have expected a trail of Omani long Sayf to be scattered down the supply route if they came via the Red Sea or via Africa in great numbers but there are, apparently, none.

Certain publications state the Omani Trade Blade provenance (though I believe they have compounded their error in continuing to copy that mistake) however none of the European people (visitors to Oman) quoted in this thread #164 nor the advisor to government affairs in Zanzibar around 1900(W. H. INGRAMS who was an official advisor to the British governor) nor any mention in "British/French relations in the Indian Ocean" By Dr Sheikh Sultan al Qassimi" which focusses on Muscat, India and Zanzibar spanning the supposed time of the European Trade Blade's appearance..make any reference to European Trade Blades for Oman. No proof exists of blades coming from India, Persia, Sri Lanka, or Yemen despite the older blade carrying the name of Sayf Yamani.
Proof exists of local Omani manufacture though none for imported blades. Not yet.

This is an excellent addition to the thread and is in many ways the essence of what we are looking at ..."The European Trade Blade conundrum".

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[fernando]

These stone sculptures abound in Portugal. At least some thirty of these statues were found in various places, some of them with epigraphic texts. They represent Galaico Lusitanian warriors. Estraban (63-24 BC) writes about the Lusitanians, mentioning that it was said that they were good ambushers and track followers, using shields two feet wide, of concave shape and straped to the body, having no handles... and that these were used together with a dagger or a gladius.

.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Lew

Gentlemen

Since there is no real proof that the European style of sword and buckler evolved from Omani style can we just conclude that they evolved separately from each other and leave it at that? It seems to me that that this type of fighting system Was designed with a great deal of strategic thought and basic common sense by both cultures which often used in duels as a way to settle various personal desputes. In my opinion both cultures developed these systems out of necessity in order to deal certain aspects of there warrior based societies.

Salaams Lew,
For now since we are without precise proof of technology transfer from East to West, I think it wise to leave the facts so far discussed on Forum record and with the proviso that should further evidence arise it can be debated afresh.

Bucklers and Swords (Terrs wa Sayf) are inherent in the study of Omani Arms as they were in use against the Abbasids in the 8th Century A.D. and continue today in the traditional "Omani Funun".

Notwithstanding that; the thread develops quite alarmingly with the discovery of a significant Algerian bladestamp mark on what was considered as a Saudia or Yemeni Sayf.

On the table we also have an interesting peripheral "Kaskara-Sayf" from Atlantia.

The main thrust of the discussion, however, turns toward the dilemma of the (Omani) European Trade Blade. Fact or fiction?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

The main thrust of the discussion, however, turns toward the dilemma of the (Omani) European Trade Blade. Fact or fiction?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

I've previously posted a few examples with blades bearing the running wolf of Passau and later Solingen...

Here, again, one of the more compelling examples. http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...is-a-good-deal

Keep in mind what I have access to is simply what is online via Google or similar, there are many swords held in private collections around the world by individuals who may have never released photographs online. Chances are there are many more.

Even if some of the wolf marks are local copies, you have to account for where the idea to use the mark came from. Whether period travelers and Europeans present in the area noted it or not, I think it is pretty undeniable European blades were present in the area. But I feel like I've made these points before...

The exact time periods and routes these blades arrived from, are out of my area I'm afraid. But I look forward to those that are continuing to research it.

All the best,

Iain

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

I've previously posted a few examples with blades bearing the running wolf of Passau and later Solingen...

Here, again, one of the more compelling examples. http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...is-a-good-deal

Keep in mind what I have access to is simply what is online via Google or similar, there are many swords held in private collections around the world by individuals who may have never released photographs online. Chances are there are many more.

Even if some of the wolf marks are local copies, you have to account for where the idea to use the mark came from. Whether period travelers and Europeans present in the area noted it or not, I think it is pretty undeniable European blades were present in the area. But I feel like I've made these points before...

The exact time periods and routes these blades arrived from, are out of my area I'm afraid. But I look forward to those that are continuing to research it.

All the best,

Iain

Salaams Iain, Yes thats fine but they are not Omani European Trade Blades..what they are is African European Trade Blades. They are entirely different blades. The Omani blade of so called approximate 18thC introduction and superceding the Omani Old Battle Sayf is a complete all in one blade hilt pommel steel weapon with fullers (one two or three) moreover it is flexible to 90 degrees returning to straight immediately. Blades like the one at your reference are thicker blades normally ending in a point and not flexible say other than perhaps 10% ~ The addition of the running wolf is interesting and I have seen an Omani blade with a similar mark but caution ... Where was the mark carried out; locally or where? I suspect somewhere in Africa to bolster the price in the case of the African weapons and in the case of the Omani example in the Muscat Museum probably in Oman..and noted in the Museum as a fake mark. The running wolf is after all the simplest to copy. The blade at your reference looks like one of the Saudia, Yemeni (or possibly African)or perhaps Algerian blades I have previously noted and at #1 to this thread and discussed at # 176... mainly concerning Michael Blalocks sword indicating an Algerian provenance to its blademark.
No evidence whatsoever save some comments quite possibly copied in error and duplicated in a few quite prestigious publications in the last century mention anything to do with Omani European Trade Blades... emphasis on Omani since African Trade Blades are well known.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Rick]

Thread locked until Lew's return .

[Lew]

To all involved in this thread. First the use of a small shield or buckler in combat dates back thousands of years and was used by the Greeks and Romans along with many other cultures so there can be no real say in who invented the fighting system combination of sword and buckler first. All else is just speculation. Now as far as this kattara thread is concerned I really think it has run its course and I am starting to worry about it straying into into grey areas. So for now it will stay closed until I make my decision.

[Lew]

After careful review I decided to reopen the thread. To all involved be aware that personal attacks will not be tolerated on this forum in any form!