Kattara for comments

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Note to Forum.

Salaams All ~It should be remembered that the Straight Omani Sayf has two distinct forms;

1. The original short Omani Battle sword and
2. The so called European Trade Blade replacement (17th ~ 19th C)

These are swords that work in tandem with a small shield; The Buckler Shield or Terrs.

The Terrs and Buckler Shield fighting technique. Terrs Wa Sayf.

I ventured onto the European Forum recently to examine some facts about European Buckler and Sword techniques in a bid to learn more on that and make some sort of suggestions on the origin of this type of combat and with reference to the Omani Style. For this I thank the European Forum especially Matchlock Freebooter and Broadaxe for their valuable contributions toward the system I Quote "from Broadaxe termed MS 1.33. From the famous German medieval fencing book Walpurgis-Fechtbuch MS I.33 of ca. 1320, now preserved in the Royal Armouries Leeds." Unquote.

The main questions being: How, if at, did the technique move from country to country and where did it originate?

One interesting gem gleaned in the European Forum ~ it appears that the system used in Lebanon was called the same but died out relatively recently... in the 1970s.

Clearly the technique used in Georgia by KHEVSAR tribesmen is also very similar. It is engrained into their tradition therefor it has survived in the same way essentially as "The Sayf and Terrs" technique in Oman.

As a bonus to that continuation in Oman is its inexorable link to the traditional Funun ... A played out dance(procession with swords and sword with shield mimic fight (ayalaah), music and poetry pageant practised many times a year at weddings, social gatherings, National Day celebrations and Bi Annual Eid Festivals thus tying it to the religious historical record.

The Georgians were very much part of the Crusader contingent and it is not inconceivable that this form was taken from their soirres into the Holy Land. Lebanon on the doorstep of the region would have easily absorbed the technique. Nights Templar and Masonic lodges and other military groups would certainly have experienced this system and could have adopted modified or studied the technique and transported it with them to Europe. Pilgrims may also have made the weapon system known to Europe.

Which way did it happen?... Did the Europeans or Arabs introduce it? My view is that the Funun started in about 751 in support of the Ibathi brand of Islam in Oman but that it actually commenced even earlier and in honour of the general Islamic movement in about 630 AD.

I therefor present the system as originating from Oman and spreading to other Arab countries in a ripple inspired by war, trade and socio-relgious interaction into the central Jerusalem hub. It is suggested that both the Georgian and European contingents absorbed this technique in Jerusalem.

As in most things it froze in Oman and in "The Funun" and was either adopted and retained as by the Khevsars or practiced in Europe for many centuries but waned and died out i.e.. in Europe because of the transition to gunpowder weapons and because it was not sealed within a socio-religious document. It was just a fighting technique.

In Europe it developed with more of the rapier style of sword though I see in the references fairly broad swords being also used... clearly the system was attractive because of the speed and balance of the combination.

I offer this as a forum note and invite suggestions. (Meanwhile I sketch out the direction required for advancing the theory and contradictions of European Trade Blades~plus further research on the Old Omani Battle Sword as well as the curved variants ) pictured below

Straight Sayf. Old Omani Battle Sword. Buckler. Curved Kattara.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

For the finer points of history and as a general timeline overview I place the following reference http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Islam

[TVV]

Interesting reserach Ibrahim.

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Clearly the technique used in Georgia by KHEVSAR tribesmen is also very similar. It is engrained into their tradition therefor it has survived in the same way essentially as "The Sayf and Terrs" technique in Oman.

The Georgians were very much part of the Crusader contingent and it is not inconceivable that this form was taken from their soirres into the Holy Land.

There are hisotircal sources that mention templars, which aided the Georgians at Didgori, but I am yet to see any sources about the opposite - Georgians travelling to the Holy Lands as mercenaries to the Latins. That does not mean it did not happen, but I would be interested in learning more about this with the proper historical argumentation.

It would also be interesting to see any parallels between the use of the buckler in Oman and the use of bucklers in India and Persia.

Personally, I am not sure if the sword and buckler technique originated somewhere and then spread out from Spain and Scotland to Rajhastan, or if it was independently developped in various places. A small, round shield is a very intuitive form, and the development of fighting technique with it and a sword does not seem that unique to require a single origin.

Regards,
Teodor

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by TVV

Interesting reserach Ibrahim.



There are hisotircal sources that mention templars, which aided the Georgians at Didgori, but I am yet to see any sources about the opposite - Georgians travelling to the Holy Lands as mercenaries to the Latins. That does not mean it did not happen, but I would be interested in learning more about this with the proper historical argumentation.

It would also be interesting to see any parallels between the use of the buckler in Oman and the use of bucklers in India and Persia.

Personally, I am not sure if the sword and buckler technique originated somewhere and then spread out from Spain and Scotland to Rajhastan, or if it was independently developped in various places. A small, round shield is a very intuitive form, and the development of fighting technique with it and a sword does not seem that unique to require a single origin.

Regards,
Teodor

Salaams Teodor~

Thank you for your constructive comments. I take your point since occasionally quite unrelated tribal structures appear globally and it is easy to conjecture buckler shield development as purely coincidental...However~

The Buckler is in the Omani Funun from the start of the Ibathi movement in what we generally consider as 751 AD. in Oman... though earlier if you take the start date of Islam proper.

Transition to the central sector which I include the Holy Land, Lebanon etc was through trade, war and religious pilgrimage. Via Mecca and direct. By sea and land routes; tried and tested.

Georgians and Europeans therefore would have viewed the system and likely came up against it and copied the form on any of the dozen or so crusades (Knights Templar, FreeMasons, Knights of Saint George et al)

System 133 the famous European Buckler and Sword style from the documents available appears to be from between the 10th and 13th Century... not before… so the Europeans developed it at the right time to agree with my assumption that it came to them from the Mediterranean.

My supposition on transmission is therefore: Oman, Mecca, Jerusalem, Lebanon (where it died out in 1970) Thence to Georgia and Europe via 2 different groups in about the 12th 13 th C..

Regarding India I think that may be linked though Oman has taken no bladed weapons to my knowledge (other than isolated firearms) from there. By that I mean of the hundreds of excellent different weapons in the Indian Armoury I see none that have traversed to Oman (though there may be odd individual pieces) The style is Omani.

There are many reasons why but the main one is, I believe, enthroned by the simple principle of "it it works dont change it". Combine that with the virtual sacrasanct nature of the Sayf ~ The Old Omani Battle Sword which lasted plus of 1000 years alongside the Terrs Buckler shield. These 2 pieces of kit are Iconic and virtually heraldic symbols in the Omani tradition reaching back to the 8th Century. Antony North describes in vivid detail the nature of Arab arms which once accepted changed very little down the centuries; Islamic Arms and Armour.

Naturally I view Indian, Sri Lankan and Persian steel production as having a potential bearing on Omani weaponry though actual "sword style" is completely different and the shield is African in nature hailing from Zanzibar (though you can say from African coastal regions)
Some point to the Khanjar as being Indian however the word itself like the word for the straight sword (Sayf) are pure Arabic words.
Pinpointing the origin of the Khanjar may be the subject of a different post however it may never be accurately uncovered.

I suspect however that it began here and evolved into the Indian vocabulary of weapons in about the 15/16th Century via trade etc. Backing my claim is the appearance in one specific pageant where Jebali dancers in the southern province of Oman (Dhofar) practice with it to music in a similar way to the Sayf exponents though I have not a clue (yet) to the time scale on that. The Metropolitan Museum puts the appearance of Khanjars in India to the 16th Century.

~I would, however, only like to mention this on passing since it is off theme slightly (my fault) and to return to the main argument regarding Buckler and Sayf transfer of technology and style to Europe~

I point to the Holy Land and the Crusades, the Omani trade links, known camel routes, sea trade routes, practices, pilgrimages, pageants and wars combined with what we know of the technique and its identical Omani name in Lebanon 40 years ago of "Sayf wa Terrs" and therefore I suggest, that since it began here 500 years before the European book was written on the system that it probably evolved from Oman between the 8th and 13th Century A.D.

I welcome any constructive views and once again thank you Teodor for your important input.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[ariel]

[QUOTE=Ibrahiim al Balooshi

....since it began here 500 years before the European book was written on the system that it probably evolved from Oman between the 8th and 13th Century A.D.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.[/QUOTE]


Well, don't you think that it might be more fair to compare apples to apples, i.e. date of publication of the first Omani book on the subject?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by ariel

Well, don't you think that it might be more fair to compare apples to apples, i.e. date of publication of the first Omani book on the subject?

Salaams Ariel,

You want me to compare the publication of the first Omani book on the subject ~ I assume you mean with the 13thC European work and upon the basis of fairness?

I think the answer is no for a number of reasons ~

First, that your question assumes perhaps a competitive argument between the two systems whereas mine is a theory for discussion in that the two evolved one from the other in keeping with my conclusive statement at the end of my post viz;

"I point to the Holy Land and the Crusades, the Omani trade links, known camel routes, sea trade routes, practices, pilgrimages, pageants and wars combined with what we know of the technique and its identical Omani name in Lebanon 40 years ago of "Sayf wa Terrs" and therefore I suggest, that since it* began here 500 years before the European book was written on the system** that it probably evolved from Oman between the 8th and 13th Century A.D".

* it refers to the Omani system.
** refers to the European development.

Second, that whereas there is the 13th C European Fightbook on the European system M.133. No document appears so far on the Eastern technique anywhere near the same time frame if at all. Thus in comparing the techniques I have scrutinized the European style and liaised with the European Forum on the subject therefore I report that the similarities are too close to ignore (though always admitting that the evidence as in all forensic research is very difficult to uncover.) Would you have me give up because there is no Arabic Textbook?

Third, your assumption based on the comparison of publications is curious. How many books have been written on the European trade blade structure of circa the 18thC ?... None. Where is the documentary evidence on precise wootz manufacturing technology?... none..The list is endless but illustrates my point that simply relying solely upon books of reference will get us nowhere, however, placing these subjects under the microscope of decent research and proper discussion will help shine a light into the dim corners of antiquity that so far have been blind alleyways.
This is surely the essence of our Forum.

As you probably know ancient mediaeval scripts often written by the clergy offer clues, however, on the Arabian Peninsula they are few and far between... and I fear in this case are non existent, moreover, what we do have is a played out performance structure passing down the message of "life at the time" through the Funoon accompanied by music and poetry which I describe as "the traditions". Thus we are able to view the two styles ~ One in a book for the West and the other as a pageant for the East. In addition the western technique has continued into martial art form till today and in the case of the Lebanese System it resurfaced about 2 centuries ago but has since died out(1970) and was known by the identical Omani name of " Sayf wa Terrs."
I believe that was a clue Dr Watson?

If there is an inherent weakness in my theory it could be in the fact that the Lebanese fight style was dormant and only revived 2 centuries ago but died in 1970, however, I believe it was born from passed down and possibly unwritten treatise and perhaps some vague references linked to the Knights in that region during the crusades.. The Georgian concept fits well into the general mix.

Therefore, I argue (in Forum Terms) for the transmission of technology from Oman via the Jerusalem/Holy Land "cog or hub" of this ancient system into both Europe and Georgia.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Note; The Omani style evolved from the Abbasid occupation and wars during the 8th/9thC. A.D. The Abbasid sword has been shown to be very similar in almost a dozen ways to the Old Omani Battle Sword illustrated on this thread at # 5 The Abbasid were great copiers of the Greek style of most parts of life: architecture, mathematics, science and weaponry etc...

I do not say that the Omanis developed in isolation the form of "buckler and sword" but that they evolved their own development of the technique probably from Abbasid influence (originally Greek) and may well have passed that on as described...and on to exponents who also modified and evolved their own styles in due course.

[ariel]

Hi Ibrahim,
Thanks for the detailed response.
IMHO, the theory you are proposing falls under the category : "True, true, and unrelated"

Multiple cultures had swords and shields, even when the blades were made of copper and bent under minimal effort. Thus, any warrior would avoid direct blade-to-blade contact while attempting to damage the opponent's sword. Thus, parrying with a shield ( of whatever side and form) must have been the routine practice from times immemorial all over the world. I do not think one can pinpoint the origin of that practice to any specific locality with even a minimal degree of certainty.
Fencing books were popular in Europe for the past several centuries. It is a shame and a sorrow that only Mamluks bothered to compose manuals on military techniques and training. This is why from time to time this Forum and dozens other swordplay-interested groups raise a heated discussion on the use of shamshir or yataghan. As they say, if it is not written, it does not exist.
Crucible steel, indeed, was a mystery, and the europeans were not particularly interested in it, because of their different concept of military structure, artistic value or sanctity of the blade and their scientific/technological thrust, whereby they bypassed wootz in favor of equally good, but infinitely cheaper, quality steel. In the West , wootz remained a curiosity, an Everest that had to be conquered simply because it was there.

However, when in the 19th century the Europeans became interested in crucible steel, there were several articles in specialty journals or full books ( Crivelli, Anosov, Belyaev etc). For that, they ( or their representatives) had to travel to the East to actually observe the manufacturing process, because there was no Indian or Persian written recipe.

Overall, I admire your attempts to research the origins of Omani swords, but disagree with some of your too-far-reaching conclusions.

With best wishes.

[Lew]

Gentlemen

Since there is no real proof that the European style of sword and buckler evolved from Omani style can we just conclude that they evolved separately from each other and leave it at that? It seems to me that that this type of fighting system Was designed with a great deal of strategic thought and basic common sense by both cultures which often used in duels as a way to settle various personal desputes. In my opinion both cultures developed these systems out of necessity in order to deal certain aspects of there warrior based societies.

[Rick]

Thread locked until Lew's return .

[Lew]

To all involved in this thread. First the use of a small shield or buckler in combat dates back thousands of years and was used by the Greeks and Romans along with many other cultures so there can be no real say in who invented the fighting system combination of sword and buckler first. All else is just speculation. Now as far as this kattara thread is concerned I really think it has run its course and I am starting to worry about it straying into into grey areas. So for now it will stay closed until I make my decision.

[Lew]

After careful review I decided to reopen the thread. To all involved be aware that personal attacks will not be tolerated on this forum in any form!