False Edge on a Curved Blade?

Stan S. · 26th December 2011, 09:13 PM

Thats exactly what I am trying to understand: How would you thrust with a long curved blade, especially when your wrist movements are restricted by the disk pommel of the tulwar?

Rich · 26th December 2011, 10:11 PM

In the midst of battle, either from horseback or on foot, you don't always have a choice as to how to use a sword; you just kill the enemy anyway you can - slash or thrust or beat them over the head with it.

Rich S

Jim McDougall · 27th December 2011, 04:04 AM

As far as I can see, the first two sabres with 'Hindu basket hilt' are most likely Rajput weapons, and not from South India, more probably to Rajasthan and northwestern regions. The tulwar term is of course simply a term for sword in Hindi, and in this case these are heavier versions of 'shamshir' blade. The shamshir is entirely a cutting weapon made for slashing cuts. The third sabre with makara head is also most likely from the same regions, which may be extended of course beyond Rajasthan to Gujerat, Kutch, Sind, etc. but as with most Indian arms regional attribution is difficult.

Tulwars with the recognizable disc pommel Indo-Persian hilts typically have as noted blades which reflect European influenced 'false edge' (sharpened back edge toward point). This feature was undoubtedly present on the sabres in other instances however they did become notably present on European forms. This development on European cavalry sabres was primarily to afford dual purpose, cut and thrust potential to these swords.

While the deadly thrust was favored by the French cuirassiers using the straight rigid blades of their heavy pallasches ....the light cavalry using sabres often also 'gave point' in thier charge. The standard position for the sword in the cavalry charge which was used through the end of the 18th into virtually the 20th century was the high tierce or tierce point...the sword held high with straight arm and blade pointed forward slight cant downward.
The idea for the sharpened back was that it was apparantly easier to withdraw from the target body and in slashing cuts it moved through more effectively.

In shamshir blades the point of percussion is different and the draw cut favored, therefore no false edge is present......the shamshir blade in its truest form is typically radiused to sharp point without yelman (which is added on many sabre blades to add momentum to slashing cut). There are of course many variant types throughout Central Asia and Ottoman sphere with less prominant yelman than the 'kilij' type swords or pala. These type blades also influenced tulwar blades in India as Mughal courts followed Ottoman as well as Persian influences in variation throughout that empire.

The first two sabre seem to have earlier hilts than the blades. As has been well pointed out, the heat of combat lends to any range of means in the use of any weapon, but largely warriors were heavily conditioned to react and respond in accord with thier constant training. Certain degree of adaption of course became present with European influences as various kinds of blades became available and exposure to equally variant tactics and techniques came into play.

Nice and interesting examples and its always good to see the swords of India brought up for discussion. Thank you for posting them.

All best regards,
Jim

Stan S. · 27th December 2011, 02:07 PM

Thank you for a great response. I can see now how curved tulwars could be used for a thrusting charge on horseback, sort of like a lance, especially against infantry. And, as you imply, it would require holding the sword in a rigidly outstretched hand pointed forward and probably with a wrist turned inward, thus keeping the blade’s side facing the ground to minimize chances of the tip glancing off opponents armor/skull/ribcage. If so, a false edge would make the business end of the sword more flexible and easier to withdraw from the target as the rider quickly passes it on horseback. A similar principle was applied to another Indian sword – a pata. Many of these feature highly flexible blades that flex not just at the tip but throughout the whole length of the blade.

I am curious however, as to why you would consider my khanda hilted sabers to be from Rajasthan? To me they look like Maratha influenced weapons but I could be wrong ofcourse…

Jim McDougall · 27th December 2011, 03:47 PM

Hi Stan,
Thanks very much!
These 'Hindu basket hilt' swords are essentially developed hilts which evolved out of the standard Indian sword, the khanda, used by the Mahratta's as well as others over time. These were with a flatter type of hilt, often without a knuckleguard, but as with most weapons variants were of course typical.
It seems generally held that the more developed basket in guard evolved from European influences, however this seems a matter of opinion that has been debated. Whatever the case, the basket hilted form was of course with longer, straight blades through the Deccan (Central India) and into the south used by the Mahrattas as the 'khanda'.

The Mahrattas were key in trade with Europe in the west and the influx of blades which became often seen in these hilts led to the alternate classification of 'firangi' for these khandas when mounted with European blade. The term is typically held to mean 'foreigner', often more specifically 'Portuguese', but again the exact etymology is unclear.

As the Hindu basket hilt moved northward in its diffusion it became used by the Rajputs as well. These remained typically mounted with long straight blades, but the Rajputs also favored the curved sabre, tulwar and the forward curved sosun pattah. The long stem on the pommel on these examples I have always considered to be primarily a Rajput feature with the usual caveat of extensive cross influences.

It is important to note that the khanda, much like the closely related 'pata', both with Mahratta and southern origins, were straight blade slashing weapons primarily. The pata and the katar used in the south and Deccan, both as transverse gripped slashing cut weapons. The Mahrattas abhored the thrust, and used these slashing techniques in thier swordsmanship. Often in martial arts demonstrations even today, the pata is used in pairs in what resembles almost a windmill type effect in the swordplay (primarily in Kerala and these regions).

Returning to the pair of basket hilt khandas with sabre blades, the Rajputs were also influenced by Mughal weapons as well as the Sikh weapons (they used the tulwar and khanda). The occurrence of curved blades on these type hilts is well established with varying types of blades, which will often alter the classification of the sword to either tegha, sosun pattah, and others.
These situations typically lead to the complexity and conundrums which characterize the study of these fascinating arms.

The makara hilt is as noted a shamshir type blade with the character of the zoomorphic theme more in line with weapons to these same northern regions as I have understood.

The most difficult part of understanding Indian arms and trying to regionalize or accurately classify them is the complexity of the history, which is key to trying to accomplish this...in degree. You are correct in the basic association with the khanda/Hindu basket hilt/firangi forms with the Mahratta, but their movements into the Deccan and south, as well as into the north, led to the widespread diffusion of these forms.

I hope this doesnt further cloud all of this, and my explanations are mostly my own perspectives so likely subject to different views or qualifications of others. Regardless, I hope they will give at least some overview to what is as noted a most complex area of study, but completely fascinating, as well as intriguing to the point of near obsession

for many of us.

All the best,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 27th December 2011, 06:28 PM

Stan, just posted on concurrent thread 'kindjal and tulwar for review' showing another khanda with sabre blade and the stem on pommel, from Rajasthan, in this case as you have suggested probably from Bundi (northern) regions.
The purpose of the stem on these is claimed to be to afford the swordsman a two hand option, which seems more plausible with the long straight blade.
The Rajputs according to some references considered dismounting to fight more in accord with thier codes of chivalry, and in these cases of course the heavier straight blade and possible two hand use may have been the case.
These sabre bladed examples of course may reflect changes in strategy while maintaing traditional hilt forms.

Stan S. · 30th December 2011, 01:56 AM

Jim,

First of all, I would like to thank you, for your description and comparison of various Indian sword types is probably the most informative post I have read in a long time. It is short, precise, and accurate. Thanks very much!

Also, while I am not looking to start a debate, I was hoping that you would clarify something for me. It seems that you distinguish between sword types based on the blade shape and not the hilt. Perhaps I am wrong for doing quite the opposite - I can see both complete swords and blades being traded between regions, however, I was under an impression that hilts stayed more localized. Of course there is no rule for this but often times an Indian sword can be identified by having an “orissa hilt” or a “rajastani hilt”, etc. based on shape, decorations, and other features indigenous to a specific region. While khanda-type basket hilt is generally thought to predate tulwar hilt (probably because it is derived directly from an old Hindu form), both styles came to be around early 17th century. Around the same time curved blades from the North began filtering into the South of India, while straight spatulate blades from the South failed to gain major popularity in the North. Therefore, would it be wrong to assume that the blades on my examples were either exported from the North or made in the South following Northern style? If you still believe that the common practice was to bring hilts to the blades and not the other way around, I would greatly appreciate it if you could elaborate further.

26th December 2011, 09:13 PM	#1
Stan S. Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Brooklyn, NY USA Posts: 227	Thats exactly what I am trying to understand: How would you thrust with a long curved blade, especially when your wrist movements are restricted by the disk pommel of the tulwar?

26th December 2011, 10:11 PM	#2
Rich Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: comfortably at home, USA Posts: 432	In the midst of battle, either from horseback or on foot, you don't always have a choice as to how to use a sword; you just kill the enemy anyway you can - slash or thrust or beat them over the head with it. Rich S

27th December 2011, 04:04 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,292	As far as I can see, the first two sabres with 'Hindu basket hilt' are most likely Rajput weapons, and not from South India, more probably to Rajasthan and northwestern regions. The tulwar term is of course simply a term for sword in Hindi, and in this case these are heavier versions of 'shamshir' blade. The shamshir is entirely a cutting weapon made for slashing cuts. The third sabre with makara head is also most likely from the same regions, which may be extended of course beyond Rajasthan to Gujerat, Kutch, Sind, etc. but as with most Indian arms regional attribution is difficult. Tulwars with the recognizable disc pommel Indo-Persian hilts typically have as noted blades which reflect European influenced 'false edge' (sharpened back edge toward point). This feature was undoubtedly present on the sabres in other instances however they did become notably present on European forms. This development on European cavalry sabres was primarily to afford dual purpose, cut and thrust potential to these swords. While the deadly thrust was favored by the French cuirassiers using the straight rigid blades of their heavy pallasches ....the light cavalry using sabres often also 'gave point' in thier charge. The standard position for the sword in the cavalry charge which was used through the end of the 18th into virtually the 20th century was the high tierce or tierce point...the sword held high with straight arm and blade pointed forward slight cant downward. The idea for the sharpened back was that it was apparantly easier to withdraw from the target body and in slashing cuts it moved through more effectively. In shamshir blades the point of percussion is different and the draw cut favored, therefore no false edge is present......the shamshir blade in its truest form is typically radiused to sharp point without yelman (which is added on many sabre blades to add momentum to slashing cut). There are of course many variant types throughout Central Asia and Ottoman sphere with less prominant yelman than the 'kilij' type swords or pala. These type blades also influenced tulwar blades in India as Mughal courts followed Ottoman as well as Persian influences in variation throughout that empire. The first two sabre seem to have earlier hilts than the blades. As has been well pointed out, the heat of combat lends to any range of means in the use of any weapon, but largely warriors were heavily conditioned to react and respond in accord with thier constant training. Certain degree of adaption of course became present with European influences as various kinds of blades became available and exposure to equally variant tactics and techniques came into play. Nice and interesting examples and its always good to see the swords of India brought up for discussion. Thank you for posting them. All best regards, Jim

27th December 2011, 02:07 PM	#4
Stan S. Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Brooklyn, NY USA Posts: 227	Thank you for a great response. I can see now how curved tulwars could be used for a thrusting charge on horseback, sort of like a lance, especially against infantry. And, as you imply, it would require holding the sword in a rigidly outstretched hand pointed forward and probably with a wrist turned inward, thus keeping the blade’s side facing the ground to minimize chances of the tip glancing off opponents armor/skull/ribcage. If so, a false edge would make the business end of the sword more flexible and easier to withdraw from the target as the rider quickly passes it on horseback. A similar principle was applied to another Indian sword – a pata. Many of these feature highly flexible blades that flex not just at the tip but throughout the whole length of the blade. I am curious however, as to why you would consider my khanda hilted sabers to be from Rajasthan? To me they look like Maratha influenced weapons but I could be wrong ofcourse…

27th December 2011, 03:47 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,292	Hi Stan, Thanks very much! These 'Hindu basket hilt' swords are essentially developed hilts which evolved out of the standard Indian sword, the khanda, used by the Mahratta's as well as others over time. These were with a flatter type of hilt, often without a knuckleguard, but as with most weapons variants were of course typical. It seems generally held that the more developed basket in guard evolved from European influences, however this seems a matter of opinion that has been debated. Whatever the case, the basket hilted form was of course with longer, straight blades through the Deccan (Central India) and into the south used by the Mahrattas as the 'khanda'. The Mahrattas were key in trade with Europe in the west and the influx of blades which became often seen in these hilts led to the alternate classification of 'firangi' for these khandas when mounted with European blade. The term is typically held to mean 'foreigner', often more specifically 'Portuguese', but again the exact etymology is unclear. As the Hindu basket hilt moved northward in its diffusion it became used by the Rajputs as well. These remained typically mounted with long straight blades, but the Rajputs also favored the curved sabre, tulwar and the forward curved sosun pattah. The long stem on the pommel on these examples I have always considered to be primarily a Rajput feature with the usual caveat of extensive cross influences. It is important to note that the khanda, much like the closely related 'pata', both with Mahratta and southern origins, were straight blade slashing weapons primarily. The pata and the katar used in the south and Deccan, both as transverse gripped slashing cut weapons. The Mahrattas abhored the thrust, and used these slashing techniques in thier swordsmanship. Often in martial arts demonstrations even today, the pata is used in pairs in what resembles almost a windmill type effect in the swordplay (primarily in Kerala and these regions). Returning to the pair of basket hilt khandas with sabre blades, the Rajputs were also influenced by Mughal weapons as well as the Sikh weapons (they used the tulwar and khanda). The occurrence of curved blades on these type hilts is well established with varying types of blades, which will often alter the classification of the sword to either tegha, sosun pattah, and others. These situations typically lead to the complexity and conundrums which characterize the study of these fascinating arms. The makara hilt is as noted a shamshir type blade with the character of the zoomorphic theme more in line with weapons to these same northern regions as I have understood. The most difficult part of understanding Indian arms and trying to regionalize or accurately classify them is the complexity of the history, which is key to trying to accomplish this...in degree. You are correct in the basic association with the khanda/Hindu basket hilt/firangi forms with the Mahratta, but their movements into the Deccan and south, as well as into the north, led to the widespread diffusion of these forms. I hope this doesnt further cloud all of this, and my explanations are mostly my own perspectives so likely subject to different views or qualifications of others. Regardless, I hope they will give at least some overview to what is as noted a most complex area of study, but completely fascinating, as well as intriguing to the point of near obsession for many of us. All the best, Jim

27th December 2011, 06:28 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,292	Stan, just posted on concurrent thread 'kindjal and tulwar for review' showing another khanda with sabre blade and the stem on pommel, from Rajasthan, in this case as you have suggested probably from Bundi (northern) regions. The purpose of the stem on these is claimed to be to afford the swordsman a two hand option, which seems more plausible with the long straight blade. The Rajputs according to some references considered dismounting to fight more in accord with thier codes of chivalry, and in these cases of course the heavier straight blade and possible two hand use may have been the case. These sabre bladed examples of course may reflect changes in strategy while maintaing traditional hilt forms.

30th December 2011, 01:56 AM	#7
Stan S. Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Brooklyn, NY USA Posts: 227	Jim, First of all, I would like to thank you, for your description and comparison of various Indian sword types is probably the most informative post I have read in a long time. It is short, precise, and accurate. Thanks very much! Also, while I am not looking to start a debate, I was hoping that you would clarify something for me. It seems that you distinguish between sword types based on the blade shape and not the hilt. Perhaps I am wrong for doing quite the opposite - I can see both complete swords and blades being traded between regions, however, I was under an impression that hilts stayed more localized. Of course there is no rule for this but often times an Indian sword can be identified by having an “orissa hilt” or a “rajastani hilt”, etc. based on shape, decorations, and other features indigenous to a specific region. While khanda-type basket hilt is generally thought to predate tulwar hilt (probably because it is derived directly from an old Hindu form), both styles came to be around early 17th century. Around the same time curved blades from the North began filtering into the South of India, while straight spatulate blades from the South failed to gain major popularity in the North. Therefore, would it be wrong to assume that the blades on my examples were either exported from the North or made in the South following Northern style? If you still believe that the common practice was to bring hilts to the blades and not the other way around, I would greatly appreciate it if you could elaborate further.