Wilah from?

Harley · 2nd December 2011, 08:03 PM

Hello Detlef & David,

David, the pendok is really someone's homework, so I think it was made this way because there is no grade of difficultly to make it, but thats my opinion.
I have enclosed 2 pictures of the hilt, it is kind of strange that the bottom part totally is different than what i have seen.
It was not only the polished wilah, but also the extreme peksi, i really don't no what other kind of hilt would fit.

Detlef, you hit the nail on the head, i have that same example here, en even now i know that it's Bali, i can't help that i still think that he looks more like the Palembang, maybe a Monday morning product

Thanks for the answers.

regards,
Ben

David · 2nd December 2011, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harley

Detlef, you hit the nail on the head, i have that same example here, en even now i know that it's Bali, i can't help that i still think that he looks more like the Palembang, maybe a Monday morning product

Well again Ben, the more i see of this dress the more i am convinced that it does not originate from either Bali or Lombok. The lack of the proper nuances of the true sesrengantan form, the use of this type of pendok (whether "homemade" or not) and the close-up of the roughly hewn hilt just don't jive with work i would expect from the actual Bali or Lombok culture.
Seeing this blade in cleaned up and in proper stain might help a bit with pinpointing it's origin.

Harley · 2nd December 2011, 08:55 PM

Now it's rather getting puzzled

, I agree that the hilt is from a very poor quality, but are there more area's where they use this kind of hilt?
I am working on it David, from what i have seen the blade is very quick responding on the warangan, I only was cleaning the blade but in the juice
there was probably some old warangan, so i could see the blackness on the blade with very clear pamor, but i cleaned it off because i need the blade to make the new gandar.
Thanks for your contribution David.

regards,
Ben

A. G. Maisey · 2nd December 2011, 09:11 PM

When I look at this keris what I believe I see is a plain but good Balinese blade in very sub-standard dress.

There is no doubt in my mind that the blade is Balinese:- the pesi is typically Balinese, and as Harley has noted, what type of hilt other than Balinese will fit it; the pamor is typical coarse Bali pamor, the unetched blade finish typical Balinese, the neat, positive garap typically Balinese. What else could it be but Balinese?

But the dress is a fish of a different feather.

Plain ugly.

As Detlef has commented, it looks as if the carver set out to make a scabbard form of which he only had a very sketchy idea.

The hilt is poorly carved, again it looks as if the maker was running on depleted memory banks.

If it was collected in Bali in the period 1920 to 1940, we are looking at the period when tourism was just beginning in Bali. The puputans had all but extinguished the previous social structure, the Dutch then tried to turn Bali into a living museum, tourism had not developed to anywhere near what we see today, the Balinese craftsmen and artists were coming under the influence of European artists, as well as being influenced by what European tourists wanted. Much of the refinement that we expect to see in Balinese art and craft at the present time is very probably due in great measure to the millions of foreign visitors that Bali admits each year. If we look closely at pre-European influenced Balinese style and art, it is very much closer to the tribal art of various areas in S.E. Asia.

Yes, millions of visitors. Over 2,500,000 arrivals in 2010. That's a big market, and the artisans of Bali do their best to satisfy it.

If we go back to the period between 1920 and 1940 it was a totally different picture. Even in 1966 there were hardly any foreigners in South Bali, and entry and exit was not nearly as easy as it is today.

To a large degree the foreign visitors to Bali have created the art of Bali, or more correctly, European perspectives have been responsible for the development of existing art norms to the point where common people can afford the level of refinement that was once only available to kings and princes.

We could hypothesise about the origins of this scabbard and hilt all day, but my personal opinion is that it was made in Bali, by a carver of no particular talent, however, from what I can see of the pendok, this does not look like Balinese workmanship, nor design. I think the pendok is a later addition.

Harley · 2nd December 2011, 09:40 PM

Dear Mr Maisey,

Thank you for your explanation, the blade Bali, good but simple, the rest is going in the parts box

I am going to try to make the sheath myself, never had tried one from Bali, but if you don't try, you never know.
Because it's a simple blade, what do you think would be a better dress for it,
gayaman, or the one that Detlef mentioned (sesrengantan)?

Thanks again everyone, for helping out!

regards,
Ben

David · 2nd December 2011, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

We could hypothesise about the origins of this scabbard and hilt all day, but my personal opinion is that it was made in Bali, by a carver of no particular talent, however, from what I can see of the pendok, this does not look like Balinese workmanship, nor design. I think the pendok is a later addition.

I know how much you hate guessing games, but would it make sense that this keris may have ended up on a different island given the style of the pendok (whether well made or not) that was added. It just seems so out of place for a Bali keris. I find it hard to believe that a native Balinese would have this added to his keris even if it was to be done on the cheap. I can accept that a sheath might be this poorly conceived by a native Balinese but the pendok seems such a mysterious addition throwing the entire ensemble off for me.

Harley · 2nd December 2011, 10:26 PM

David,

I can image n that probably something like you said, has happened with this keris.
It could be that someone bought the keris from Bali, and was living in another area, there the keris has fallen or somehow broke, and they repaired it with
everything they could lay there hands on.
And years later we trying to resolve the mystery

regards,
Ben

A. G. Maisey · 2nd December 2011, 10:41 PM

Yes David, certainly, its as I said:- a later addition.

There is nothing about the pendok that looks like Bali or that looks original to this scabbard, for me. My guess is that it was most probably done in Jakarta to make the keris salable.

Harley, if I were to redress this keris I'd be looking at a gayaman wrongko, I would not give it a pendok, and since you undoubtedly do not have a set of segrek to cut the inside of the gandar so there is no joint, I'd be making the gandar in two pieces and glueing down the sides with two part epoxy adhesive, not wood working glue, because woodworking glue can generate rust.

Working out of the Indonesian environment, a pale, plain grained soft wood would be the best choice, and then stain to imitate pelet--- the Balinese and Javanese used to do it, and still do it, why shouldn't you?

Harley · 2nd December 2011, 11:06 PM

Thanks Mr Maisey,

Then that is what i am going to try, i have done the gandar a couple of times,
but like you said i have not the tools to make it in one piece.
I have some plain Indonesian wood that i use for making the sheath, but for the pelet i really must do some practice, i tried one time before, without looking for an example, with as result a ugly kendit

I just realized that i only have a Balinese patrem keris, can someone tell me
what the measurement of the width for a gayaman is?, the rest i can work out.

regards,
Ben

A. G. Maisey · 3rd December 2011, 01:53 AM

I would not call that kendit ugly, its well within the parameters of a natural kendit.

Bali gayams vary a bit in size, they're not as disciplined as Solo and Jogja gayams.

I've just picked up the closest one and its measurements are 185mm long, depth at center point is 57mm, thickness at widest point on top is 26mm, the entire wrongko is 584mm from top of the atasan to the tip of the gandar. Proportion wise it looks a bit too long in the gandar for the size of the atasan.

2nd December 2011, 08:03 PM	#1
Harley Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Nederland Posts: 83	Hello Detlef & David, David, the pendok is really someone's homework, so I think it was made this way because there is no grade of difficultly to make it, but thats my opinion. I have enclosed 2 pictures of the hilt, it is kind of strange that the bottom part totally is different than what i have seen. It was not only the polished wilah, but also the extreme peksi, i really don't no what other kind of hilt would fit. Detlef, you hit the nail on the head, i have that same example here, en even now i know that it's Bali, i can't help that i still think that he looks more like the Palembang, maybe a Monday morning product Thanks for the answers. regards, Ben Attached Images

2nd December 2011, 11:06 PM	#9
Harley Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Nederland Posts: 83	Thanks Mr Maisey, Then that is what i am going to try, i have done the gandar a couple of times, but like you said i have not the tools to make it in one piece. I have some plain Indonesian wood that i use for making the sheath, but for the pelet i really must do some practice, i tried one time before, without looking for an example, with as result a ugly kendit I just realized that i only have a Balinese patrem keris, can someone tell me what the measurement of the width for a gayaman is?, the rest i can work out. regards, Ben Attached Images Last edited by Harley; 3rd December 2011 at 12:10 AM.

2nd December 2011, 08:55 PM	#3
Harley Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Nederland Posts: 83	Now it's rather getting puzzled , I agree that the hilt is from a very poor quality, but are there more area's where they use this kind of hilt? I am working on it David, from what i have seen the blade is very quick responding on the warangan, I only was cleaning the blade but in the juice there was probably some old warangan, so i could see the blackness on the blade with very clear pamor, but i cleaned it off because i need the blade to make the new gandar. Thanks for your contribution David. regards, Ben

2nd December 2011, 09:11 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	When I look at this keris what I believe I see is a plain but good Balinese blade in very sub-standard dress. There is no doubt in my mind that the blade is Balinese:- the pesi is typically Balinese, and as Harley has noted, what type of hilt other than Balinese will fit it; the pamor is typical coarse Bali pamor, the unetched blade finish typical Balinese, the neat, positive garap typically Balinese. What else could it be but Balinese? But the dress is a fish of a different feather. Plain ugly. As Detlef has commented, it looks as if the carver set out to make a scabbard form of which he only had a very sketchy idea. The hilt is poorly carved, again it looks as if the maker was running on depleted memory banks. If it was collected in Bali in the period 1920 to 1940, we are looking at the period when tourism was just beginning in Bali. The puputans had all but extinguished the previous social structure, the Dutch then tried to turn Bali into a living museum, tourism had not developed to anywhere near what we see today, the Balinese craftsmen and artists were coming under the influence of European artists, as well as being influenced by what European tourists wanted. Much of the refinement that we expect to see in Balinese art and craft at the present time is very probably due in great measure to the millions of foreign visitors that Bali admits each year. If we look closely at pre-European influenced Balinese style and art, it is very much closer to the tribal art of various areas in S.E. Asia. Yes, millions of visitors. Over 2,500,000 arrivals in 2010. That's a big market, and the artisans of Bali do their best to satisfy it. If we go back to the period between 1920 and 1940 it was a totally different picture. Even in 1966 there were hardly any foreigners in South Bali, and entry and exit was not nearly as easy as it is today. To a large degree the foreign visitors to Bali have created the art of Bali, or more correctly, European perspectives have been responsible for the development of existing art norms to the point where common people can afford the level of refinement that was once only available to kings and princes. We could hypothesise about the origins of this scabbard and hilt all day, but my personal opinion is that it was made in Bali, by a carver of no particular talent, however, from what I can see of the pendok, this does not look like Balinese workmanship, nor design. I think the pendok is a later addition.

2nd December 2011, 09:40 PM	#5
Harley Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Nederland Posts: 83	Dear Mr Maisey, Thank you for your explanation, the blade Bali, good but simple, the rest is going in the parts box I am going to try to make the sheath myself, never had tried one from Bali, but if you don't try, you never know. Because it's a simple blade, what do you think would be a better dress for it, gayaman, or the one that Detlef mentioned (sesrengantan)? Thanks again everyone, for helping out! regards, Ben

2nd December 2011, 10:26 PM	#7
Harley Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Nederland Posts: 83	David, I can image n that probably something like you said, has happened with this keris. It could be that someone bought the keris from Bali, and was living in another area, there the keris has fallen or somehow broke, and they repaired it with everything they could lay there hands on. And years later we trying to resolve the mystery regards, Ben

2nd December 2011, 10:41 PM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	Yes David, certainly, its as I said:- a later addition. There is nothing about the pendok that looks like Bali or that looks original to this scabbard, for me. My guess is that it was most probably done in Jakarta to make the keris salable. Harley, if I were to redress this keris I'd be looking at a gayaman wrongko, I would not give it a pendok, and since you undoubtedly do not have a set of segrek to cut the inside of the gandar so there is no joint, I'd be making the gandar in two pieces and glueing down the sides with two part epoxy adhesive, not wood working glue, because woodworking glue can generate rust. Working out of the Indonesian environment, a pale, plain grained soft wood would be the best choice, and then stain to imitate pelet--- the Balinese and Javanese used to do it, and still do it, why shouldn't you?

3rd December 2011, 01:53 AM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	I would not call that kendit ugly, its well within the parameters of a natural kendit. Bali gayams vary a bit in size, they're not as disciplined as Solo and Jogja gayams. I've just picked up the closest one and its measurements are 185mm long, depth at center point is 57mm, thickness at widest point on top is 26mm, the entire wrongko is 584mm from top of the atasan to the tip of the gandar. Proportion wise it looks a bit too long in the gandar for the size of the atasan.