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Old 23rd November 2011, 06:32 PM   #1
KuKulzA28
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I don't practice any Indian martial arts, but fighting is fighting...

One can use footwork, spacing, and timing to avoid being struck - and deflections/blocks with the blade if necessary. When at a diagonal to the enemy, you aren't in their optimum striking area and they must adjust to both attack and defend most effectively - there they are vulnerable. One can use spacing by being just within range of the enemy, then leaning back (like a pendulum affect) to avoid being struck and then leaning back in to destroy the enemy. And timing... angling away while striking at the enemy arm, wrist, hand, knee, etc. while their strike is coming is a good "buzz kill" for your opponent. Of course blocking and deflecting with blades isn't ideal but there's different techniques for that as well. And of course, do not forget kicks to the groin, knees, and shins when close. If you have a superior angle, timing, and cripple the enemy's rooting - it's hard for them to effectively attack you. Also, anyone mid-movement or in transition is vulnerable to an attack - thus if your timing is on point, you can catch them at the moment they are least prepared to defend. Fakes and feints are also useful. THere's a whole arsenal of tactics and principles - obviously however, a shield would help a lot, though it makes it harder to grab.
In Chinese martial arts, when concerning the dao/saber, they say when dan dao (single) watch out for the free hand ('cause of grabbing), and when shuang dao (double sabers) watch the feet...

But then again, in military settings Chinese have often used shields - it's usually in civilian settings and late-Qing/early Republican that swords were used without shields
How do you think the katar-tulwar warriors do it? Katars aren't the ideal blocking tool either...

Last edited by KuKulzA28; 23rd November 2011 at 06:43 PM.
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Old 23rd November 2011, 06:48 PM   #2
Lew
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How do you think the katar-tulwar warriors do it? Katars aren't the ideal blocking tool either...[/QUOTE]

Well I think the katar was used as a parrying dagger much like the European left handed dagger was used in a duel. In fact the scissor katar may have come from this type of trident left handed dagger?
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Last edited by Lew; 23rd November 2011 at 07:01 PM.
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Old 23rd November 2011, 07:59 PM   #3
KuKulzA28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lew
Quote:
Originally Posted by kukulza28
How do you think the katar-tulwar warriors do it? Katars aren't the ideal blocking tool either...
Well I think the katar was used as a parrying dagger much like the European left handed dagger was used in a duel. In fact the scissor katar may have come from this type of trident left handed dagger?
If that's the case then I am unfamiliar with parrying-daggers, etc.
I was also under the impression that the three-section daggers/katars were more fragile?

I also thought that there were forms/techniques for using the long blade to tie-up or get past the opponent's main weapon and using the katar to finish them. However, I'm sure there were many many different styles and preferences as far as shield, katar, or both in same hand, left-handed dagger, dual tulwars, single tulwar, etc.

Might be time to do more research and learn even more
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Old 24th November 2011, 12:18 AM   #4
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Here's a suggestion for the use of shields.

They're much better than swords at blocking arrows.

Once decent muskets came along, effective shields became unmanageably heavy, as did armor. Lugging a flintlock and a shield for hand-to-hand combat is a bit awkward, and I'm willing to bet that this is when shields were largely discarded.

F
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Old 24th November 2011, 01:21 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lew
How do you think the katar-tulwar warriors do it? Katars aren't the ideal blocking tool either...
Not of the same era but the Tanjore Katar are an awesome defense and the hooked monster head terminal on the guard makes for a great catcher of blades too, to have one in each hand awesome.

When one looks at the hand straps on the back of the dahls/bucklers, anyone could well hold both a Katar and a buckler....then there are those Bengal shields with the spikes/blades too.

I have seen one of these 'tri bladed' EU parrying daggers that open to three blades adapted for or made in Eastern style, I think it is seen in Islamic Arms and Armour from private Danish Collections....will need to check when I am with my books though.

Great thoughts on the scissor Katar Lew.

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Old 24th November 2011, 03:26 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freebooter

When one looks at the hand straps on the back of the dahls/bucklers, anyone could well hold both a Katar and a buckler....then there are those Bengal shields with the spikes/blades too.
Good one! I never thought of that but you are right - the handle assembly on a dhal is not unlike a katar grip. I can now see how one coudl hold both in the left hand with only the tip of katar extending past the edge of the shield crating a deadly point. Perhaps this is how madu shield came to be? And speaking a madu, this is trully a defence with which you don't even need a sword!
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Old 24th November 2011, 04:12 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fearn
Here's a suggestion for the use of shields.

They're much better than swords at blocking arrows.

Once decent muskets came along, effective shields became unmanageably heavy, as did armor. Lugging a flintlock and a shield for hand-to-hand combat is a bit awkward, and I'm willing to bet that this is when shields were largely discarded.

F
Good observation! You're right. Shields began to dwindle as firearms became more prevalent. Dedicated hand to hand weapons started to diminish when firearms got even more effective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by freebooter
Not of the same era but the Tanjore Katar are an awesome defense and the hooked monster head terminal on the guard makes for a great catcher of blades too, to have one in each hand awesome.
Just curious, what time period were those most prevalent?
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Old 24th November 2011, 04:42 PM   #8
Jim McDougall
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The Indian shield (dhal) was used as noted, of course to block cuts and in parry....much as with sabre of the steppes and Central Asia, the horseman used the draw cut. As far as I have known there was little or any 'scheduled' parrying or sword to sword contact with tulwars, shamshirs or these types of swords....parrying was the work of the shield.
It seems most of the 'fencing' techniques described here with left hand dagger (gauche) are from European styles, and would suggest or involve sword to sword combat. Obviously, in the heat of combat virtually anything can happen, and combatants can and will resort to use of any means or object if thier weapons become compromised.

The katar was intended largely as a close in fighting weapon, actually in most cases more of a misercorde (coup de grace) as described in some references.
The large katars of the Deccan and South were actually used as slashing weapons, as were the patas as used by Mahrattas, often in pairs in rather a 'windmill' fashion, in demonstrations at least....unsure if such techniques used in actual combat, but as noted, probably circumstantially they may have been.

Personally I cannot imagine a katar as a parrying weapon, but it seems that some of the innovative forms with splaying sections of blade and multiple blades did imply such use after the introduction of European weapons and form. As described in "Schools and Masters of Fence" (Castle, 1884) many of these 'left hand daggers' of innovative character were more for show than actual use in Europe, but again those observations can be presumed only in degree.
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Old 24th November 2011, 05:16 PM   #9
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
The Indian shield (dhal) was used as noted, of course to block cuts and in parry....much as with sabre of the steppes and Central Asia, the horseman used the draw cut. As far as I have known there was little or any 'scheduled' parrying or sword to sword contact with tulwars, shamshirs or these types of swords....parrying was the work of the shield.
It seems most of the 'fencing' techniques described here with left hand dagger (gauche) are from European styles, and would suggest or involve sword to sword combat. Obviously, in the heat of combat virtually anything can happen, and combatants can and will resort to use of any means or object if thier weapons become compromised.

The katar was intended largely as a close in fighting weapon, actually in most cases more of a misercorde (coup de grace) as described in some references.
The large katars of the Deccan and South were actually used as slashing weapons, as were the patas as used by Mahrattas, often in pairs in rather a 'windmill' fashion, in demonstrations at least....unsure if such techniques used in actual combat, but as noted, probably circumstantially they may have been.

Personally I cannot imagine a katar as a parrying weapon, but it seems that some of the innovative forms with splaying sections of blade and multiple blades did imply such use after the introduction of European weapons and form. As described in "Schools and Masters of Fence" (Castle, 1884) many of these 'left hand daggers' of innovative character were more for show than actual use in Europe, but again those observations can be presumed only in degree.

Salaams Jim, Excellent letter thank you. As usual well researched and accurate. There is a misconception that a shield is only a parrying and blocking weapon. I have seen a video clip on forum of the shields use as a striking weapon to the head and neck targets using the edge ~


As usual demonstration swordwork employing windmill tactics was a martial skill thus therefor used in actual fighting. Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
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Old 25th November 2011, 05:27 AM   #10
Jim McDougall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Salaams Jim, Excellent letter thank you. As usual well researched and accurate. There is a misconception that a shield is only a parrying and blocking weapon. I have seen a video clip on forum of the shields use as a striking weapon to the head and neck targets using the edge ~


As usual demonstration swordwork employing windmill tactics was a martial skill thus therefor used in actual fighting. Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Thank you so much Ibrahiim!!!
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Old 24th November 2011, 05:21 PM   #11
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Here is an older posting regarding Tulwar fighting technique which you may find interesting....

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=indian+hand

Kind Regards David
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Old 24th November 2011, 10:31 PM   #12
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Thank you, David. Unfortunately the videos seem to be password protected, so I could not view them You wouldn't happen to have a password?
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