16th/17th century chain shot

fernando · 16th November 2011, 01:43 PM

Hi Mark,
I would adventure to suggest, within the whole of my ignorance, that your item might not be a barshot; i don't know, the proportions of the bar (thickness+length) in relation to whole setup ... the way it is connected to the balls. But don't pay much notice to my impressions

.
I like that solid shot wooden base, by the way

.

M ELEY · 16th November 2011, 08:12 PM

Ahh yes, the solid shot on the wooden base...it came from a land far, far away-

I see your point on the construction and in the end simply need to continue doing research on this puppy. It is not absolutely proven to be a barshot, nor is it absolutely proven not to be a dumbell (I must say, though, that it probably is one or the other versus a third option of counterweight, machine part, etc).

The best proof I had that it was mid-19th was the last site I listed which, unfortunately, is no longer accessible. That gent sold a number of cannons from all age and nationalities and had barshot EXACTLY like mine listed as 19th c. His site wasn't above some controversy, though, being a seller after all (some of his lanaka appeared more modern and poorly cast to be original), sooooo....hopefully, I'll run across a Civil War artillery expert someday who will finally end the speculation.

fernando · 16th November 2011, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

....hopefully, I'll run across a Civil War artillery expert someday who will finally end the speculation...

I have registered in a Spanish Naval History forum in purpose to ask details on palanquetas, namely their cross section profile; but no answer so far

.
http://todoababor.mforos.com/1556314...0-palanquetas/

kronckew · 17th November 2011, 04:07 AM

i posted a copy of the US artillery manual for the civil war period on the forum before. it mentions bar and chain shot only in passing, for naval use. it goes into great detail on all other civil war era projectiles, their wooden sabot, the tin bands used to hold same to the shot, pre-made cartridges, etc. etc. worth doing a search for & reading it.

Linky to Gibbon Artillery Manual of 1863

the full 1862 army ordinance manual, scanned, is available thru google books as a .pdf if interested... it's too big to attach here. (19MB) it has sections not only on artillery, but small arms and horse saddles, and tackle, swords and bayonets, etc. and also tables on ballistics and on 'foreign' ordinance.

Linky to google books ord. manual (click the .pdf item upper left to download)

Matchlock · 17th November 2011, 05:42 AM

Hi Kronckew,

Those latter contributions seem to kind of lead to a considerably later period of time than I intended to cover when posting the thread and staking its claim. I have to admit though that I don't mind the current evolution at all, and I sure wish you to go on both researching and updating, guys!

And don't worry: I promise you I'll hang on bringing in the earliest points of view on my favored subject! After all, all topics need evolution and fresh minds, just in order to stand up to scientific evaluation!

I'm glad our community is taking the topic to further boundaries!

Best,
Michael

Matchlock · 17th November 2011, 06:17 AM

Hi there,

I found this barshot specimen attributed to the American Revolutionary War in a Cowans', Ohio, catalog of 28-29 April 2010.

Best,
Michael

fernando · 17th November 2011, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Hi Kronckew,

Those latter contributions seem to kind of lead to a considerably later period of time than I intended to cover when posting the thread and staking its claim. I have to admit though that I don't mind the current evolution at all, and I sure wish you to go on both researching and updating, guys!

And don't worry: I promise you I'll hang on bringing in the earliest points of view on my favored subject! After all, all topics need evolution and fresh minds, just in order to stand up to scientific evaluation!

I'm glad our community is taking the topic to further boundaries!

Best,
Michael

Most kind and Gentlemanly of you Michl

.

fernando · 17th November 2011, 02:36 PM

Hi Wayne

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

... Linky to google books ord. manual[/URL] (click the .pdf item upper left to download)

I find no .pdf item in the upper left when i open the link; only one .pdf button in the upper right but it doesn't enable the download. Could it be because we have a different operative system ?

M ELEY · 18th November 2011, 04:15 AM

I have a huge appreciation for these naval types of shot and it was never my intention to steer attention away from the primary focus. I assure all that if I had my way, I'd own all the specimens already presented (

), nor do I have a particular interest in post- Age of Fighting Sail armament. It's just that it's so frustrating and amazing that there is an absence of clarity of this area pertaining to the 19th c. I was hoping to find out for sure and thus, I posted here. I feel anyone who researches specialty shot may find this thread informative from beginning to end (i.e. early shot to it's extinction in the latter half of the 19th century).

Kronkew- thank you very much for those links. You bring my exact point to light with this, though. Here are manuals detailing every aspect of artillery from gunpowder grain, combustion forces, exact propulsion with estimation of droppage with firing, specific ordenance, the wood used to make cannon carriages, etc, etc. Yet, when it comes to our little friend, the bar and chain shot, there is a generic 4 or 5 word description. Understandably, these were on their way out, but still, no valid description for something still carried on ships and such? I just read an article on a land-based installation on the Atlantic coast that fired barshot at attacking ships circa 1860's, yet no pics, no descriptions? It's like this with every book and online source I've come across thus far. It's not just the Amer CW either. Other countries still carried forms of bar/chain shot. Were these just recycled from previous centuries, or is my guess right that with modern forging came easier models of barshot (two cannon balls braised to a round bar). That'ss my tirade for the night, just wish someone would definitively prove me right or wrong.

M ELEY · 22nd November 2011, 01:21 PM

Hmmm...another clue to look into if it's correct.

http://cwbullet.org/bullet-relic-for...hp/t-6189.html

fernando · 7th December 2011, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

I have registered in a Spanish Naval History forum in purpose to ask details on palanquetas, namely their cross section profile; but no answer so far

.
http://todoababor.mforos.com/1556314...0-palanquetas/

I have got an answer from a word keeping Spaniard. Not much of a help for your case, though; but a great article on XVII ships artillery;
http://www.aammb.cat/9034%20galeon%2...artilleria.pdf

.

kronckew · 7th December 2011, 11:24 PM

found the referenced youtube video today when looking at another video on sword and buckler posted here. around 02:47 into it, they show an example of the 'slow' cannonball effects i mentioned earlier in this thread. kinda gory. whole video is educational. lotsa nice arms, sharp pointy things and things that go boom.

HD Battle of Camden from 'the Patriot' (best at 720p HD & full screen)

edited: today must be cannon day. found this article:

Cannon ball fired thru home

kinda off topic, but does show the odd bounces they can take.

Matchlock · 7th December 2011, 11:46 PM

Very nice video, and rather authentic regarding the guns as well - thanks!

m

broadaxe · 8th December 2011, 07:27 AM

This is a video of a real field experiment: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfsuI...ure=plpp_video
Took me a LOT of time to find it after searching for another footage from a different film I once saw on History channel, similar conditions but targets were ballistic gelatine rather plywood.

17th November 2011, 04:07 AM	#4
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,249	i posted a copy of the US artillery manual for the civil war period on the forum before. it mentions bar and chain shot only in passing, for naval use. it goes into great detail on all other civil war era projectiles, their wooden sabot, the tin bands used to hold same to the shot, pre-made cartridges, etc. etc. worth doing a search for & reading it. Linky to Gibbon Artillery Manual of 1863 the full 1862 army ordinance manual, scanned, is available thru google books as a .pdf if interested... it's too big to attach here. (19MB) it has sections not only on artillery, but small arms and horse saddles, and tackle, swords and bayonets, etc. and also tables on ballistics and on 'foreign' ordinance. Linky to google books ord. manual (click the .pdf item upper left to download) Last edited by kronckew; 17th November 2011 at 04:41 AM.

17th November 2011, 05:42 AM	#5
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Kronckew, Those latter contributions seem to kind of lead to a considerably later period of time than I intended to cover when posting the thread and staking its claim. I have to admit though that I don't mind the current evolution at all, and I sure wish you to go on both researching and updating, guys! And don't worry: I promise you I'll hang on bringing in the earliest points of view on my favored subject! After all, all topics need evolution and fresh minds, just in order to stand up to scientific evaluation! I'm glad our community is taking the topic to further boundaries! Best, Michael Last edited by Matchlock; 17th November 2011 at 05:54 AM.

17th November 2011, 06:17 AM	#6
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi there, I found this barshot specimen attributed to the American Revolutionary War in a Cowans', Ohio, catalog of 28-29 April 2010. Best, Michael Attached Images

7th December 2011, 11:24 PM	#12
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,249	found the referenced youtube video today when looking at another video on sword and buckler posted here. around 02:47 into it, they show an example of the 'slow' cannonball effects i mentioned earlier in this thread. kinda gory. whole video is educational. lotsa nice arms, sharp pointy things and things that go boom. HD Battle of Camden from 'the Patriot' (best at 720p HD & full screen) edited: today must be cannon day. found this article: Cannon ball fired thru home kinda off topic, but does show the odd bounces they can take. Last edited by kronckew; 7th December 2011 at 11:48 PM.

16th November 2011, 01:43 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Mark, I would adventure to suggest, within the whole of my ignorance, that your item might not be a barshot; i don't know, the proportions of the bar (thickness+length) in relation to whole setup ... the way it is connected to the balls. But don't pay much notice to my impressions . I like that solid shot wooden base, by the way .

16th November 2011, 08:12 PM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,196	Ahh yes, the solid shot on the wooden base...it came from a land far, far away- I see your point on the construction and in the end simply need to continue doing research on this puppy. It is not absolutely proven to be a barshot, nor is it absolutely proven not to be a dumbell (I must say, though, that it probably is one or the other versus a third option of counterweight, machine part, etc). The best proof I had that it was mid-19th was the last site I listed which, unfortunately, is no longer accessible. That gent sold a number of cannons from all age and nationalities and had barshot EXACTLY like mine listed as 19th c. His site wasn't above some controversy, though, being a seller after all (some of his lanaka appeared more modern and poorly cast to be original), sooooo....hopefully, I'll run across a Civil War artillery expert someday who will finally end the speculation.

18th November 2011, 04:15 AM	#9
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,196	I have a huge appreciation for these naval types of shot and it was never my intention to steer attention away from the primary focus. I assure all that if I had my way, I'd own all the specimens already presented ( ), nor do I have a particular interest in post- Age of Fighting Sail armament. It's just that it's so frustrating and amazing that there is an absence of clarity of this area pertaining to the 19th c. I was hoping to find out for sure and thus, I posted here. I feel anyone who researches specialty shot may find this thread informative from beginning to end (i.e. early shot to it's extinction in the latter half of the 19th century). Kronkew- thank you very much for those links. You bring my exact point to light with this, though. Here are manuals detailing every aspect of artillery from gunpowder grain, combustion forces, exact propulsion with estimation of droppage with firing, specific ordenance, the wood used to make cannon carriages, etc, etc. Yet, when it comes to our little friend, the bar and chain shot, there is a generic 4 or 5 word description. Understandably, these were on their way out, but still, no valid description for something still carried on ships and such? I just read an article on a land-based installation on the Atlantic coast that fired barshot at attacking ships circa 1860's, yet no pics, no descriptions? It's like this with every book and online source I've come across thus far. It's not just the Amer CW either. Other countries still carried forms of bar/chain shot. Were these just recycled from previous centuries, or is my guess right that with modern forging came easier models of barshot (two cannon balls braised to a round bar). That'ss my tirade for the night, just wish someone would definitively prove me right or wrong.

22nd November 2011, 01:21 PM	#10
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,196	Hmmm...another clue to look into if it's correct. http://cwbullet.org/bullet-relic-for...hp/t-6189.html

7th December 2011, 11:46 PM	#13
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Very nice video, and rather authentic regarding the guns as well - thanks! m

8th December 2011, 07:27 AM	#14
broadaxe Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 334	This is a video of a real field experiment: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfsuI...ure=plpp_video Took me a LOT of time to find it after searching for another footage from a different film I once saw on History channel, similar conditions but targets were ballistic gelatine rather plywood.