Kattara for comments

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks very much guys! I must say you are all doing great at getting this discussion aligned, and above all, keeping it a friendly discussion...decidely NOT a debate. At this point most of what I am doing is fact finding as stated in various literature, as presented and of course subject to consideration.

I think we have all agreed that Solingen was well equipped and situated for prolific production well before the Industrial Revolution and did in fact supplant many long standing suppliers of blades, particularly Toledo and in many cases the Italian centers for the volume of trade blades. In looking at the various examples linked by Iain of these kattara of the 'new' form, which I consider more aligned with Muscat, in the coastal regions, it still seems to me that most of these are 'trade' blades. Actually, the examples seen in these various sale situations seem to be mounted with blades of the type, and perhaps even traded from Red Sea ports, as they correspond with those found in North Africa in kaskara. The fullering seen is of two types I have seen in these, and in particular the running wolf mark along with the cross and orb are characteristically seen in these Sudanese swords.

Case in point, in one of the kattara with single central fuller, a blade like this is shown in "Kaskara from Northern Darfur, Sudan" Graham Reed, (JAAS, Vol.XII, #3, March 1987, LII, p.168). Mr. Reed was in Darfur just before 1987 and was speaking with the chief who owned this kaskara. He told Reed that he thought the 'running wolf' was a hippopotamus and the cross and orb a tree. He then explained that the blade was from 'before the time of Kasalla, which loosely translates to say, before the increased local production of kaskaras in Kasalla in the 1960s....in other words, a very old blade. This suggests that perhaps these markings were placed on these blades by armourers in the Sudan, or they may well be early to mid 17th century. There is a very real possibility of course, which needs more research, that Solingen makers in the 19th century may have been producing trade blades specifically to these markets. These may well have been copies of much earlier style blades.

With the examples Iain linked:

One of these seems the exact same style blade (Reed, LII), and the markings seen. It seems that among the other examples shown, and as often is the case, the 16th,17th century dates are optimistically and it seems somewhat arbitrarily added, though the European attribution is often acceptable but with some caveat. The use of the running wolf had largely subsided in Solingen by the latter 17th century, in fact was not widely used except in the Caucusus where it was used by Chechen makers in the 19th century and in the 18th century only by Samuel Harvey in England with his initials.

In the one example shown first, the hilt is entirely different than most examples and as was rebutted in the listing, actually is a Manding sabre, not Omani. The leatherwork is correspondent to the scabbard styles of the Manding of Mali, and the grip is graduated though without the knob usually on top.

It does seem possible that some of these blades (except the running wolf examples)could be from the 18th century, as such blades were entering British India in the latter years. I have seen pata with Solingen blades with familiar markings of 18th century and the also familiar kaskara type triple fuller blades. Haider and Tipu's armies in Mysore used German and French mercenaries and there were significant numbers of these swords extant there and certainly in Malabar to the west. There were significant commercial ties between Muscat and India in the latter 18th century which continued into the 19th. The favor of German blades was well explained by J.H. Grose ("Voyage to the East Indies",1772) ; "...though there is no doubt that the English blades were bought by the Marathas, the factory correspondence shows that they were highly unsatisfactory and were progressively in less demand. Angrey, the famous Maratha admiral used to say that the English blades were 'only fit to cut butter with'". ("Indian Arms & Armour" G.Pant, p.42-43).
Clearly the desire and demand for German blades was well established by the Marathas as well as the Mysoris, and with the trade in Malabar which served Muscat. There was considerable trade between Gujerat and Muscat as well, and Gujeratis lived in Muscat and Omanis lived in Surat, ("Trade and Empire in Muscat and Zanzibar" , Mohamed Reda Bhacker, 1992, p.31).



The other points of entry into Muscat would have been via the Red Sea ports as well as other Arabian ports en route to Zanzibar, where these blades would have likely been among other commodities.

With regard to the desired properties of the German blades, Jan Ostrowski ("The Polish Sabre", 1979, p.226) notes, "...the greater elasticity of European steel permitted thinner blades than did Damascene steel, which was more brittle and usually required thicker blades".
The famed Turkish traveller Euliya Celebi in "Seyahatname" praises the quality of 'Tuetonic steel' calling it 'German iron'. ("Islamic Swords and Swordsmiths", Istanbil, 2001, p.10).

With regard to Umayyad and Abbasid swords, I must correct an earlier comment of mine in which I said examples of these no longer existed. Actually I misremembered what Yucel had said, which was that while we cannot be certain (empirically) of the hilts or mounts on the examples in Istanbul in the collection known as the Sacred Swords, there is far more certainty as to the blades, which seem to be of those periods in provenance. (op.cit. p.54). Apparantly one of the telling features are the one to seven gold filled holes in the blades, and the rounded point is noted as well.
The degree in which these are represented in the old battle swords is unclear, as are the hilts as noted. In Elgood, it is noted as mentioned before that the blades on these are often German and thought to be 17th century (examples 2.14 and 2.15) but others also have Persian blades.

Guess thats all I have for now, there'll be a quiz tomorrow
just kidding !

All the best,
Jim

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thanks very much guys! I must say you are all doing great at getting this discussion aligned, and above all, keeping it a friendly discussion...decidely NOT a debate. At this point most of what I am doing is fact finding as stated in various literature, as presented and of course subject to consideration.

I think we have all agreed that Solingen was well equipped and situated for prolific production well before the Industrial Revolution and did in fact supplant many long standing suppliers of blades, particularly Toledo and in many cases the Italian centers for the volume of trade blades. In looking at the various examples linked by Iain of these kattara of the 'new' form, which I consider more aligned with Muscat, in the coastal regions, it still seems to me that most of these are 'trade' blades. Actually, the examples seen in these various sale situations seem to be mounted with blades of the type, and perhaps even traded from Red Sea ports, as they correspond with those found in North Africa in kaskara. The fullering seen is of two types I have seen in these, and in particular the running wolf mark along with the cross and orb are characteristically seen in these Sudanese swords.

Case in point, in one of the kattara with single central fuller, a blade like this is shown in "Kaskara from Northern Darfur, Sudan" Graham Reed, (JAAS, Vol.XII, #3, March 1987, LII, p.168). Mr. Reed was in Darfur just before 1987 and was speaking with the chief who owned this kaskara. He told Reed that he thought the 'running wolf' was a hippopotamus and the cross and orb a tree. He then explained that the blade was from 'before the time of Kasalla, which loosely translates to say, before the increased local production of kaskaras in Kasalla in the 1960s....in other words, a very old blade. This suggests that perhaps these markings were placed on these blades by armourers in the Sudan, or they may well be early to mid 17th century. There is a very real possibility of course, which needs more research, that Solingen makers in the 19th century may have been producing trade blades specifically to these markets. These may well have been copies of much earlier style blades.

With the examples Iain linked:

One of these seems the exact same style blade (Reed, LII), and the markings seen. It seems that among the other examples shown, and as often is the case, the 16th,17th century dates are optimistically and it seems somewhat arbitrarily added, though the European attribution is often acceptable but with some caveat. The use of the running wolf had largely subsided in Solingen by the latter 17th century, in fact was not widely used except in the Caucusus where it was used by Chechen makers in the 19th century and in the 18th century only by Samuel Harvey in England with his initials.

In the one example shown first, the hilt is entirely different than most examples and as was rebutted in the listing, actually is a Manding sabre, not Omani. The leatherwork is correspondent to the scabbard styles of the Manding of Mali, and the grip is graduated though without the knob usually on top.

It does seem possible that some of these blades (except the running wolf examples)could be from the 18th century, as such blades were entering British India in the latter years. I have seen pata with Solingen blades with familiar markings of 18th century and the also familiar kaskara type triple fuller blades. Haider and Tipu's armies in Mysore used German and French mercenaries and there were significant numbers of these swords extant there and certainly in Malabar to the west. There were significant commercial ties between Muscat and India in the latter 18th century which continued into the 19th. The favor of German blades was well explained by J.H. Grose ("Voyage to the East Indies",1772) ; "...though there is no doubt that the English blades were bought by the Marathas, the factory correspondence shows that they were highly unsatisfactory and were progressively in less demand. Angrey, the famous Maratha admiral used to say that the English blades were 'only fit to cut butter with'". ("Indian Arms & Armour" G.Pant, p.42-43).
Clearly the desire and demand for German blades was well established by the Marathas as well as the Mysoris, and with the trade in Malabar which served Muscat. There was considerable trade between Gujerat and Muscat as well, and Gujeratis lived in Muscat and Omanis lived in Surat, ("Trade and Empire in Muscat and Zanzibar" , Mohamed Reda Bhacker, 1992, p.31).



The other points of entry into Muscat would have been via the Red Sea ports as well as other Arabian ports en route to Zanzibar, where these blades would have likely been among other commodities.

With regard to the desired properties of the German blades, Jan Ostrowski ("The Polish Sabre", 1979, p.226) notes, "...the greater elasticity of European steel permitted thinner blades than did Damascene steel, which was more brittle and usually required thicker blades".
The famed Turkish traveller Euliya Celebi in "Seyahatname" praises the quality of 'Tuetonic steel' calling it 'German iron'. ("Islamic Swords and Swordsmiths", Istanbil, 2001, p.10).

With regard to Umayyad and Abbasid swords, I must correct an earlier comment of mine in which I said examples of these no longer existed. Actually I misremembered what Yucel had said, which was that while we cannot be certain (empirically) of the hilts or mounts on the examples in Istanbul in the collection known as the Sacred Swords, there is far more certainty as to the blades, which seem to be of those periods in provenance. (op.cit. p.54). Apparantly one of the telling features are the one to seven gold filled holes in the blades, and the rounded point is noted as well.
The degree in which these are represented in the old battle swords is unclear, as are the hilts as noted. In Elgood, it is noted as mentioned before that the blades on these are often German and thought to be 17th century (examples 2.14 and 2.15) but others also have Persian blades.

Guess thats all I have for now, there'll be a quiz tomorrow
just kidding !

All the best,
Jim

Salaams Jim...

Thank you for another inspiring letter. I need more time to revise please?? There is huge input by you here and I should take a day or two to get hold of the bulk of it.

I think between us i.e. "The Forum" we may, in due course, be able to underwrite a general statement encompassing all of the latest material and perhaps put a firm line under the Old Omani Kattara. I suspect, however, that the story of the New Kattara could run on a while. I am delighted that we have just crashed through 4000 hits with a healthy developing number of excellent letters of very informative Forum research.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balaooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams Jim and may I reply in blue under each paragraph...?

Thanks very much guys! I must say you are all doing great at getting this discussion aligned, and above all, keeping it a friendly discussion...decidely NOT a debate. At this point most of what I am doing is fact finding as stated in various literature, as presented and of course subject to consideration.
Agreed Jim and as you have said before we are all learning !

I think we have all agreed that Solingen was well equipped and situated for prolific production well before the Industrial Revolution and did in fact supplant many long standing suppliers of blades, particularly Toledo and in many cases the Italian centers for the volume of trade blades. In looking at the various examples linked by Iain of these kattara of the 'new' form, which I consider more aligned with Muscat, in the coastal regions, it still seems to me that most of these are 'trade' blades.

I dont agree with these blades being Muscat. Nizwa had considerable say in what went on especially in respect of sword style. If anything sword style was the same all over Oman not factionalised. ( I am investigating the Salalah situation where every man has a New style Kattara even today.. Its use obviously prolific in an area largely divorced from Muscat at that time and thought more of as Yemen even. The Jebali tribes, in fact, straddle the border even today.


Actually, the examples seen in these various sale situations seem to be mounted with blades of the type, and perhaps even traded from Red Sea ports, as they correspond with those found in North Africa in kaskara. The fullering seen is of two types I have seen in these, and in particular the running wolf mark along with the cross and orb are characteristically seen in these Sudanese swords.

They may correspond but they aren't the same. The running wolf where marked are regarded as fake therefor are unreliable having been copied onto blades where and by whom? I have no evidence of cross and Orb on Omani New Kattara. One of the problems in finding the sword trail is that there are no identical swords like this either side of the Red Sea or in Africa. This means that batches and shiploads of New Style Kattara went direct to Oman only. Where they crop up eg in Zanzibar/Pemba and the nearby African Coast is because they were taken there by Omanis from Oman.

Case in point, in one of the kattara with single central fuller, a blade like this is shown in "Kaskara from Northern Darfur, Sudan" Graham Reed, (JAAS, Vol.XII, #3, March 1987, LII, p.168). Mr. Reed was in Darfur just before 1987 and was speaking with the chief who owned this kaskara. He told Reed that he thought the 'running wolf' was a hippopotamus and the cross and orb a tree. He then explained that the blade was from 'before the time of Kasalla, which loosely translates to say, before the increased local production of kaskaras in Kasalla in the 1960s....in other words, a very old blade. This suggests that perhaps these markings were placed on these blades by armourers in the Sudan, or they may well be early to mid 17th century. There is a very real possibility of course, which needs more research, that Solingen makers in the 19th century may have been producing trade blades specifically to these markets. These may well have been copies of much earlier style blades.

Yes it is always interesting talking to people first hand though often the response is only regarding what they can remember or what their father said...and therefor often very unreliable though interesting. I agree with all the possibilities outlined.
With the examples Iain linked:

One of these seems the exact same style blade (Reed, LII), and the markings seen. It seems that among the other examples shown, and as often is the case, the 16th,17th century dates are optimistically and it seems somewhat arbitrarily added, though the European attribution is often acceptable but with some caveat. The use of the running wolf had largely subsided in Solingen by the latter 17th century, in fact was not widely used except in the Caucusus where it was used by Chechen makers in the 19th century and in the 18th century only by Samuel Harvey in England with his initials.

In the one example shown first, the hilt is entirely different than most examples and as was rebutted in the listing, actually is a Manding sabre, not Omani. The leatherwork is correspondent to the scabbard styles of the Manding of Mali, and the grip is graduated though without the knob usually on top.

Do you mean this thread at #1? Agreed. The blade is too thick and would not, I suspect, bend through 90 degrees easily. It is not an New style Omani Kattara. The blade marks appear fake also. The hilt seems Omani and the scabbard could be. That is not to say that an Omani person did not carry it.

It does seem possible that some of these blades (except the running wolf examples)could be from the 18th century, as such blades were entering British India in the latter years. I have seen pata with Solingen blades with familiar markings of 18th century and the also familiar kaskara type triple fuller blades. Haider and Tipu's armies in Mysore used German and French mercenaries and there were significant numbers of these swords extant there and certainly in Malabar to the west. There were significant commercial ties between Muscat and India in the latter 18th century which continued into the 19th. The favor of German blades was well explained by J.H. Grose ("Voyage to the East Indies",1772) ; "...though there is no doubt that the English blades were bought by the Marathas, the factory correspondence shows that they were highly unsatisfactory and were progressively in less demand. Angrey, the famous Maratha admiral used to say that the English blades were 'only fit to cut butter with'". ("Indian Arms & Armour" G.Pant, p.42-43).

The bold letters are mine on your quote The favor of German blades was well explained by J.H. Grose ("Voyage to the East Indies",1772) which is a good solid research note I didnt have the benefit of. Thank you for that. I believe that may account for the second blade of The Omani Old Kattara... not the NEW KATTARA... however it is a key date quotation along with your earlier 1821 Frazer quote in Hormuz. Both these quotes may come back to assist us in our conclusion soon to either/all ;
1. Old Omani Kattara with original style blade.
2. Old Omani Kattara with replacement blade.
3. New Omani Kattara with long flexible spatulate tip blade.


Clearly the desire and demand for German blades was well established by the Marathas as well as the Mysoris, and with the trade in Malabar which served Muscat. There was considerable trade between Gujerat and Muscat as well, and Gujeratis lived in Muscat and Omanis lived in Surat, ("Trade and Empire in Muscat and Zanzibar" , Mohamed Reda Bhacker, 1992, p.31).

Though it remains a puzzle as to why no Indian blades were adopted by Oman. India had scores of good, well designed blades but none were adopted. Trade was very tightly controlled by the British from Bombay see Oman and French Relations in the Indian Ocean by Doctor Sheikh Sultan Al Qasimi covering the 3 centuries up to 1900...I find it hard to believe that trade with Muscat and the outside world (Europe) really flourished because of the reluctance of Oman to accept embassadors into Muscat until the 1900s. Local / African/ Indian/ Persian/ Gulf/ trade did however boom !


The other points of entry into Muscat would have been via the Red Sea ports as well as other Arabian ports en route to Zanzibar, where these blades would have likely been among other commodities.

I can find no evidence of New Omani Kattara spilling out in peripheral regions of the Red Sea on route to Oman. That is also the case regarding the second blade of the Old Omani Kattara. That could mean that they came direct via the Cape circumventing Africa and the Red Sea or elsewhere or that they were made locally or all of those.

With regard to the desired properties of the German blades, Jan Ostrowski ("The Polish Sabre", 1979, p.226) notes, "...the greater elasticity of European steel permitted thinner blades than did Damascene steel, which was more brittle and usually required thicker blades".
The famed Turkish traveller Euliya Celebi in "Seyahatname" praises the quality of 'Tuetonic steel' calling it 'German iron'. ("Islamic Swords and Swordsmiths", Istanbil, 2001, p.10).

Interesting detail Jim...Thank you ! I didnt know that ! If it comes up in a quiz I'm on it !

With regard to Umayyad and Abbasid swords, I must correct an earlier comment of mine in which I said examples of these no longer existed. Actually I misremembered what Yucel had said, which was that while we cannot be certain (empirically) of the hilts or mounts on the examples in Istanbul in the collection known as the Sacred Swords, there is far more certainty as to the blades, which seem to be of those periods in provenance. (op.cit. p.54). Apparantly one of the telling features are the one to seven gold filled holes in the blades, and the rounded point is noted as well.
The degree in which these are represented in the old battle swords is unclear, as are the hilts as noted. In Elgood, it is noted as mentioned before that the blades on these are often German and thought to be 17th century (examples 2.14 and 2.15) but others also have Persian blades.

Agreed that the Topkapi has various swords of Abbasid provenance users.stlcc.edu/mfuller/turk/topkapiarms.html
I noted 11 similarities to the Old Omani Kattara giving it a provisional style date parallel to Ibn Julanda the first Ibadi Immam in 751 AD. (though it is quite possibly perhaps 50 to 100 years earlier!) The first Immam date, however, seems logical. What I suspect throws people is my introduction of the Funoon from that time illustrated by the sword dance with the buckler shield. The Razha. I dont think everyone realises that this was not a written tradition, rather, it was enacted as if on stage rather like pantomime and at several pageants every year without fail in the form of a parade or dance past without shields and mimic fighting contests with sword and shield. It was sacrasanct and absolute in that it heralded both Eids and was used at weddings and public gatherings. It still is. This living breathing enterprise of folklore and fact, history and tradition echos life through the ages in Oman therefor it quite rightly shows the changed dance pattern with the NEW OMANI KATTARA and the same old Terrs shield though as yet I have no exact date. The second thin blade for the Old Kattara possibly imported in the 17TH C may be a transitional blade leading to The NEW OMANI KATTARA.

Guess thats all I have for now, there'll be a quiz tomorrow
just kidding !

All the best,
Jim

Thanks Jim ...Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams, Forum.
It has slowly dawned upon me that a reference book library (non commercially structured) would be an ideal servant to our needs.. To illustrate this point I add this book below as an example which would probably save a lot of time getting to the heart of Islamic Swords in the period we are debating. Indeed a book library of some description will be the subject in its own right of a new thread, however, I wanted to bring on the discussion with this relevant sampler;

Al-suyuf al-Islamiyya. [=Islamic swords and swordsmiths]. Pref. by Ekmeleddin Ihsanoglu
YUCEL, UNSAL
Bookseller: BOSPHORUS BOOKS (Istanbul, -, Turkey)

Book Description: Istanbul: IRCICA, 1988., 1988. CD-ROM copy. In Arabic. Catalog describing 114 swords kept in the Topkapi Seraglio Museum and the Military Museum in Istanbul. These swords were used between the first and tenth centuries Hijra (7th - 16th centuries A.D.) Part I is related to the blessed swords of the Prophet, the four khalifas and companions of the Prophet. Part II examines the characteristics of Islamic swords and the development of their form: the analysis is based on 92 swords used in different periods. Part III is devoted to Muslim swordsmiths. Index of swords and bibliography included. Fine. Bookseller Inventory # 36526

Naturally many excellent books on a variety of Forum topics are available ~ somewhere ~ but a forum book list library of reccommended publications would be ideal. Perhaps in the form of a sticky.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams ~ as a bi-product of this research I have just discovered a rather remarkable fact from a book I knew I had to read by Ronald Codrai called Abu Dhabi, An Arabian Album; about life in the 50s and 60s. It is a superb collection of mid 20th C Photos however more specific to the subject of Kattara on page 86, 87 shows the Razha sword fighting ritual to the drum beat and on page 191 a sword dance using a curved sword. In fact the curved sword appears in the page 86 and 87 pictures going up against a straight Kattara in the mimic combat ritual. Not only was the dance performed at Eid but at social occasions, weddings and circumcision.

What is fascinating to note from the pictures is that in the absence of the Terrs Buckler Shield exponents simply used a sandal as the shield...

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

A question for all our old style kattara owners...

Going back to the first page of this thread and TVV's sword... There is a blade marking I'm interested in.

http://vikingsword.com/vb/attachment...id=47563&stc=1

I've seen it on a few long kattara and one short old style kattara. I'm wondering if there are other cases on the short swords.

There is a reason I'm asking which I'll reveal in due time if there's enough info and other examples out there to make something of it.

[Michael Blalock]

I have it on this new style kattara

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Michael Blalock

I have it on this new style kattara

Salaams Michael ~ please show if possible the full sword ~ Is this a Maroon مرن (flexible) sword...or stiff. Does it have a spatula end or point. Initially it looks like a blade strike made after manufacture... any other marks? Regards Ibrahiim
p.s. please note Jims sticky/classic thread? on European forum # 38 and 43 and 66 mainly outlining Peter Cull marks but I suspect the mark to your item is placed afterwards.