Kattara for comments

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

.....so what about these two? The kattara here has what you describe as a wing shaped cross section, ..............and what about the mark also on a kattara but not the one shown full length.?

Salaams,
The straight Kattara style sword is possibly not Omani bladed since its blade is of a thick wing shaped cross section. Omani blades are flat in cross section thus allowing for great flexibility. The hilt, however, is in the Omani Kattara or the long Sayf style hilt style (both have the same hilt).

See other wing shaped straight blades on Michael Blalocks Arabian Swords#1. Illustrated in the Yemeni Military Museum and in the same post another thick wing blade from Riyadh souk. These could eminate from a Mamluke or a Saudia style. On the other hand it may be a one off. Bending the blade easily (whereafter the blade immediately springs back to shape) through 90 degrees would indicate an Omani Kattara. A stiff difficult to flex blade will indicate "Not Omani Kattara." However that is not to say it is not a Hybrid.

I have dealt with the marks on the other sword which is a Sayf(local terminology) that I believe is a RAK produced Omani weapon. The marks appear as star shapes or asterix and a peculiar tower shape with a moon inverted half way up the column. The Rak makers use this mark amongst many others and since it contains a moon shape is likely to be Islamic linked. (though it may even be a representation of a set of scales) At any rate both Moon and Stars are Islamic marks...

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Regards,
Ibrahiim.

[laEspadaAncha]

Salaams Ibrahiim,

For my own (and possibly others') clarity, when you discuss "wing-shaped" swords or blades, are you speaking of a blade with a lenticular cross section, i.e., a double-edged, "flattened" oval?

Also, can you please elucidate in detail the blade profile of the Omani swords you believe to be of indigenous form and which you describe as being "flat" by comparison (with regards to presence of lack of distal taper, thickness, etc.)?

As a "math guy," I guess I am surprised I don't see more quantitative analysis of measurable parameters in the study of arms & armor, such as blade length, width, profile, as well as easily measures yes/no parameters (e.g., taper, distal taper, etc.). In fact, the only time I can recall seeing tables of data was in regards to a New Zealand study of Polynesian (or maybe pan-Oceanic) war clubs (I'm guessing there are probably more out there, but just not in my nascent library). It's the least subjective of expression of form, and I would think a proper statistical analysis of the respective blade forms would be the least interpretive way to test - or support - your theory.

Cheers,

Chris

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by laEspadaAncha

Salaams Ibrahiim,

For my own (and possibly others') clarity, when you discuss "wing-shaped" swords or blades, are you speaking of a blade with a lenticular cross section, i.e., a double-edged, "flattened" oval?

Also, can you please elucidate in detail the blade profile of the Omani swords you believe to be of indigenous form and which you describe as being "flat" by comparison (with regards to presence of lack of distal taper, thickness, etc.)?

As a "math guy," I guess I am surprised I don't see more quantitative analysis of measurable parameters in the study of arms & armor, such as blade length, width, profile, as well as easily measures yes/no parameters (e.g., taper, distal taper, etc.). In fact, the only time I can recall seeing tables of data was in regards to a New Zealand study of Polynesian (or maybe pan-Oceanic) war clubs (I'm guessing there are probably more out there, but just not in my nascent library). It's the least subjective of expression of form, and I would think a proper statistical analysis of the respective blade forms would be the least interpretive way to test - or support - your theory.

Cheers,

Chris

Salaams Chris,

Wrapped inside your well placed call for mathematical analysis is an assumption that we are able to pinpoint origin of species ...however we cannot. I would dearly love to stick the calipers on an original new so called 17th C (New Omani Kattara). In itself this is also not going to help if there is no standard length or weight because of the cottage industry style of production I think we are looking at. Every Omani Kattara I see and there are hundreds already viewed are all different in some small way. What is the same, or similar, is the flexibility. Stiff blades do not qualify. How do I put that into mathematical terms ? The bend is through about 90 degrees and the blade when subjected to this test springs immediately back to shape. Any blade that does not bend and return to shape after this simple test is not an Oman (New) Kattara.

The peculiar point being that its predecessor, with the same name, was a short weapon capable of slash cut and stab is a stiff unflexible blade originating in the 8th C. and is superceded by the new blade form in the 17th C (Supposedly)

What is under examination is ~ Is this new sword a European Trade Blade? If not what are its origins ?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[laEspadaAncha]

Salaams Ibrahiim,

The measurements themselves, e.g., length, width, cross section, et al, would serve as the mathematical terms for such a study. A proper statistical analysis of the distribution of these measurements might allow for someone to cross-correlate the measurements with a likely place of origin/production, and in turn, evaluate the probable origin of a specific example by comparing it to this distribution. While you may not be able to pinpoint the origin of an entire type or form, theoretically you might be able to formulate a theory of origin of a respective type by comparing the measurements of individual examples with a known provenance/origin to the (statistical) distribution of the group...

Cheers,

Chris

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by laEspadaAncha

Salaams Ibrahiim,

The measurements themselves, e.g., length, width, cross section, et al, would serve as the mathematical terms for such a study. A proper statistical analysis of the distribution of these measurements might allow for someone to cross-correlate the measurements with a likely place of origin/production, and in turn, evaluate the probable origin of a specific example by comparing it to this distribution. While you may not be able to pinpoint the origin of an entire type or form, theoretically you might be able to formulate a theory of origin of a respective type by comparing the measurements of individual examples with a known provenance/origin to the (statistical) distribution of the group...

Cheers,

Chris

Salaams Chris, That all sounds great in theory, however, in practise all but impossible. To date I have not seen two blades that are the same except for 3 brand new items from a workshop I now know well. Whilst that statement goes someway to disproving the European (industrial) Trade Blade connection because Industrial Trade Blades of one type are all the same technically and identical. I have no idea how to apply it. As you may appreciate Im working in a vacuum largely in the dark and without a safety net !

Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams,
The straight Kattara style sword is possibly not Omani bladed since its blade is of a thick wing shaped cross section. Omani blades are flat in cross section thus allowing for great flexibility. The hilt, however, is in the Omani Kattara or the long Sayf style hilt style (both have the same hilt).

See other wing shaped straight blades on Michael Blalocks Arabian Swords#1. Illustrated in the Yemeni Military Museum and in the same post another thick wing blade from Riyadh souk. These could eminate from a Mamluke or a Saudia style. On the other hand it may be a one off. Bending the blade easily (whereafter the blade immediately springs back to shape) through 90 degrees would indicate an Omani Kattara. A stiff difficult to flex blade will indicate "Not Omani Kattara." However that is not to say it is not a Hybrid.

I have dealt with the marks on the other sword which is a Sayf(local terminology) that I believe is a RAK produced Omani weapon. The marks appear as star shapes or asterix and a peculiar tower shape with a moon inverted half way up the column. The Rak makers use this mark amongst many others and since it contains a moon shape is likely to be Islamic linked. (though it may even be a representation of a set of scales) At any rate both Moon and Stars are Islamic marks...

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Regards,
Ibrahiim.

OK this raises the question of the swords you advertise as Omani. Assuming your description is correct, then these ALL would have flexible blades??

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

OK this raises the question of the swords you advertise as Omani. Assuming your description is correct, then these ALL would have flexible blades??

Salaams,
Your question is possibly badly placed. With respect it is a commercial question and I cannot address it on the forum. However, I would have thought that information being freshly researched would be gratefully received so that we are not in the dark regarding a swords provenance.

In trying to assess a blade as Omani to date there have been no mistakes in the final analysis. I will agree that getting there is a bumpy ride but well worth the effort. So far this thread has cracked the origin of the Old Omani Kattara with a forum accepted date of 751 AD. I believe we have a duty to examine thoroughly the new version, no?

Geographical influence ~(The UAE, RAK and the entire region up almost as far as Bahrain and including Gwadur in Baluchistan and Zanzibar were Omani for many centuries..The Shihuh tribe today, in fact, straddle Oman and the UAE. A Kattara made in a Shehe workshop is therefor Omani 100% by tradition . I think you misunderstand the origin of species not only of the swords but of the tribes also... They all dance the Funun whether in the UAE or Oman because not so long ago this was all one region.

~ Granted it was a series of splintered Fiefdoms but socially it was very much one entity. Having said that there is a rich diversity. Religiously take for example RAK.. Ibathi , Hamaffi, Shaffaii, Maliki, Hamberli; all with their own style and history all different interpretations but all the same...Islamic. They all do the Funoon sword dance and fighting mimicry with the (New) Kattara and Terrs ~

Omans History. What many may not understand is what swords were used in Oman after they ousted the Abbassids 1200 years ago? Essentially after the Abbasids left, Oman was peaceful and prosperous and sea trade flourished exponentially. This period of peace lasted nearly 400 years during which time the Old Omani Battle Sword spread all over Oman ~ Coast, Mountains and Interior.

What is important to realise is that in the 16th to 18th Centuries Oman did not have a warring Interior versus Coastal Belt using different swords e.g. . Coastal Oman Sayf curved weapons versus Interior straight Kattara.. when in fact they used the same swords; mainly Old Kattara though doubtless there were others ..Sayfs Shamshir etc. So the advent of a new blade would change the entire country sword stock though I argue not instantly but over time and perhaps 100 years or more. Change through fashionable choice via a cottage industry output and then acceptance into the Funoon; rather than huge industrial production and direct influx of Trade Blades out of Europe. I chose the word "direct" carefully since no evidence is available showing the blade moving gradually through Africa. Equally no evidence exists of a sudden influx of Trade Blades from Europe... not a shread..Its all here say!

This weapon was an Icon of Heraldic proportions.

Consider the socio-religio- political implications of a so called new sword from Europe ??

We are being fed (by association) without proof that somehow a European Trade Blade superceded this Iconic weapon, taking not only its name but the Terrrs Shield into the bargain..and with a woft of the hand "in the 17th C." ? We have seen this quality of guesswork before with spurious wild assessments of the Old Kattara some said was 16th C and some said was 10th. I know a museum that have one dated 19thC!

It seems linked, by association, to the flood of European Trade Blades into Africa. The instantaneous arrival and sudden acceptance of a European sword into Oman being apparently automatic, absolute and unquestioned ... until now.

Without proof, no research, heresay and with mere association I find that difficult to believe thus I have earmarked a closer to home explanation illustrating known blade stamps from the Ras al Khaimah where Omani (new) Kattara are produced there to this day. They already have a reputation of knife/blade making/ leather scabbard and hilt making and my investigations may lead to more discoveries and perhaps the origin of the old Kattara manufacture. I do not however rule out other manufacturing centres and it would not surprise me to find New Kattara from Muscat, Sohar, Zanzibar, Madagascar or Nizwa. (There is a new factory in Salalah making tourist new kattara by Pakistani craftsmen but that is recent and unrelated to this research.)

I believe that all Omani (New) Kattara must have flexible blades. You cannot dance or perform the (new) Funun with a sword which doesn't flex. Fight training with a non flexible heavier blade and using the Terrs is lop sided and awkward. Should we discover, however, that there is a branch of Omani New Kattara that occur with stiff blades that do/do not use the Terrs Shield I would be the first to report on it.

The straight Kattara in your photo has a Saudia or Yemeni blade and could be a one off, or a hybrid.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Photos attached show;
Long Flexible Spatulate Tipped (New) Kattara. and stamps identified as Ras Al Khaimah workshops stamps... stars (Nijimaat) and a new style of "God is Great" insignia. The (New) Kattara was made with pommel, tang and blade as an "all in one" product.

The long flexible "style" Omani (New) Kattara Circa 17th Century and Claimed to be a European Trade Blade alongside the shorter Old Omani Kattara with distinctive turned down quillons and Islamic hilt..The Old Omani Kattara. Circa 751 A.D.

[kahnjar1]

[QUOTE=Ibrahiim al Balooshi]Salaams,
Your question is possibly badly placed. With respect it is a commercial question and I cannot address it on the forum.

OK I see your point, so I will rephrase. Of the many "new" Omani swords you see, what % of these are true Omani, with flexible blade?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

[QUOTE=kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams,
Your question is possibly badly placed. With respect it is a commercial question and I cannot address it on the forum.

OK I see your point, so I will rephrase. Of the many "new" Omani swords you see, what % of these are true Omani, with flexible blade?

Salaams,
Not counting the tourist items I would say all Omani new style (that is of the "supposed" European Trade Blade 17th C design) straight Kattara are fully flexible and true Omani by definition.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[ariel]

Hi Ibrahim,
What do you think of this one?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/400240311416#ht_1488wt_1348

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by ariel

Hi Ibrahim,
What do you think of this one?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/400240311416#ht_1488wt_1348

Salaams~ I see that the auction is finished ~ So I will tell you exactly what that is.

Omani 751 AD Short Kattara Battlesword. Needless to say it is not Moorish.. but Omani. It is not 17th C design but 8thC. This thread deals with exactly this weapon. It is the early Omani Kattara. Someone has won a nice early Omani Kattara. The Hilt looks original. The blade may need a second look as some of the later blades were flatter and not as stiff... I would be looking for dot or dots and the famous wing shaped blade cross section(though dots are not vital). One of the quillons has the end missing... not a problem..Battle Damage ?..On these swords the hilt may be tubular or more originally eight sided. There ought to be three holes in the hilt The bottom two for holding the hilt together and the top one, just below the pommel, for a wrist strap.

The Omani Short Battle Sword (Kattara) 8thC. Pre-cursor to the long flexible (dancing) Omani Kattara of 17thC? which is supposedly said to be a European Trade Blade? but argued by me as a Local Omani Production
[ NOW UNDER THE SPOTLIGHT]
Nice Sword !!!

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by ariel

Hi Ibrahim,
What do you think of this one?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/400240311416#ht_1488wt_1348

Before it falls through the cracks.....