Kaskara with Arabic "seal" stamp

A.alnakkas · 25th October 2011, 07:18 PM

Very nice. Iain, do you think this is a local blade or a european one stamped with maybe an armory stamp? the stamp reminds me of indian/afghani ones.

It says Dawud Ali, btw.

Iain · 25th October 2011, 07:42 PM

Someone call me?

Honestly Stephen has a lot more experience with kaskara than I do, so if he says it's a European trade blade I believe him. The style of cross guard certainly matches with an old sword.

Wood is in surprisingly good shape.

About the stamp, I was half hoping the translation would give a place rather than a name. The name I assume has nothing to give a regional clue? As I understand it Dawud is the Arabic version of David, so probably quite common, Ali of course is a very common name as well in the Sudan.

So, I don't think it's an armoury stamp. I'm wondering if some enterprising merchant stamped a batch of blades he imported or bought up? Would be a decent marketing trick perhaps, as in "I have a Dawud Ali blade and it works great! You should go get one as well!".

That's about the only thing I can think of. As Norman points out, I really doubt this was a one off.

Cheers,

Iain

A.alnakkas · 25th October 2011, 08:36 PM

Oh haha, sorry I somehow thought you have made this topic!

Valid opinion, I'd wait for Stephen's assessment. A very interesting piece non the less!

stephen wood · 25th October 2011, 11:41 PM

...thank you for your interest in this one.

Did I post them upside down? I can't find a Sultan of Darfur or a King of Sennar with that name - the merchant idea is quite plausible. It does seem to be a first in that while engraved or etched inscriptions abound, I have never come across an Arabic stamp on one of these swords. Is it a tughra?

Iain · 25th October 2011, 11:54 PM

Not a tughra as far as I've seen them if you mean the classical definition of an Ottaman ruler's stamp...

I also think it's odd this is only a name, not a phrase, a verse or anything else.

Glad the merchant idea seems plausible, because beyond that I'm out of ideas.

Jim McDougall · 28th October 2011, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephen wood

...thank you for your interest in this one.

Did I post them upside down? I can't find a Sultan of Darfur or a King of Sennar with that name - the merchant idea is quite plausible. It does seem to be a first in that while engraved or etched inscriptions abound, I have never come across an Arabic stamp on one of these swords. Is it a tughra?

this is a tughra

Jim McDougall · 1st November 2011, 03:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Very nice. Iain, do you think this is a local blade or a european one stamped with maybe an armory stamp? the stamp reminds me of indian/afghani ones.

It says Dawud Ali, btw.

You have presented an interesting observation here which I missed entirely, the stamp is very much like those seen on Indian/Afghani blades though these cartouches are typically in the upper part of the blade. It does seem that is certain instances blades which were likely from Indian trade have been found in kaskaras (i.e. backsword blades).
It is an interesting consideration that this could be a stamp from Indian regions which may have found its way to an intermediary involved in Red Sea trade and perhaps was applied in that medium.

Iain, I think this presents well regarding your merchant suggestion. In the trade centers where blades were received from arriving ships and dispersed to caravans and other merchants this seems very plausible.

Iain · 1st November 2011, 12:05 PM

Hi Jim,

The more I think about it, the less likely I think this was a local Sudanese application.

If we look at why and how local marks were applied it was usually for talismanic reasons or to imply European levels of quality.

As the name on this stamp does not seem to be a known local ruler or religious figure, I think we can rule out any such properties. Additionally names and religious inscriptions tended to be etched or carved in, not stamped.

I agree with A. Alnakkas that there is a resemblance to armoury stamps from India. I lack the expertise to know if this example is in that style or not though? Perhaps one of the Indian experts can weigh in on the issue?

All in all an intriguing sword, I love these odd pieces that do not confirm to the textbook examples!

Cheers,

Iain

Jim McDougall · 1st November 2011, 11:25 PM

Thanks very much Iain, perhaps Stephen might bring in his expertise to help with these thoughts. Seems like the posting over on the other forum is at a bit of a standstill as well.
It seems like most of the Indian/Afghan stamps were either in square or circular cartouche, and the ones I have seen were in Urdu..but the configuration of the characters in this seem quite similar.

All the best,
Jim

A.alnakkas · 1st November 2011, 11:49 PM

hmm, well the stamp has a common name through out the muslim world. Be it urdu, arabic or persian.. it will still be written all the same.

Jim McDougall · 2nd November 2011, 02:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

hmm, well the stamp has a common name through out the muslim world. Be it urdu, arabic or persian.. it will still be written all the same.

Thanks very much, that is good to know and thus the possibility of a stamp being used by an intermediary in the trade complex with a stamp which could be from many locations. With the Indian swords I have seen with these stamped cartouches (typically square) they were tulwars stamped nearest the blade edge at the ricasso...these blades typically also had a stamped 'trisula' at blade center. (see Rawson, "The Indian Sword", #44; V&A 3459).

With the other instance I have seen a circular stamp on Algerian 'nimcha' sabres, as described in "European Blades in Tuareg Swords and Daggers", Dr. Lloyd Cabot Briggs ( JAAS, Vol.V, #2, p.78-79). noted as follows,"...the ricasso is stamped on one side only with a circular stamp containing an illegible combination of Arabic characters in high relief". There are line drawings with this shown (pl.XVII, b) and it is noted there are two swords, both Algerian with nearly identical blades. The first with the cartouche has sickle mark as well; the second has no cartouche, but ANDREA FERARA.

I do not agree with the assessment of 16th-17th c. Italian or German for the two blades, they appear to be of 18th century Solingen production as the triple fuller configuration on sabre blade suggests, as does the Andrea Ferara stamped name.

The point is that the stamp occurring on one side only of the blade of one of two sabres imported from Germany in either beginning to perhaps mid 19th c.
suggests it may have been a worn stamp being used by a trader or merchant on one of these. The fact that the stamp on this blade is apparantly from the same stamp with varied quality is to the application by the user.

Briggs notes that the cartouche was likely added later in the region received of course than at production, and that various marks including the sickles are known to be added as such, apparantly in Sudan (kaskara H2, op.cit.)as well as other regions, in this case Algeria.

Naturally the nature of the blade itself must be considered, and this is of course a broadsword blade of the type used on kaskaras, and not used as far as I know on Indian swords, nor on Algerian nimchas. Also the stamped location does not correspond to the other instances noted, so this stands as an amomaly in kaskara blades until others are found.

stephen wood · 22nd November 2011, 01:42 PM

I have read that during the Mahdiyya and the Khalifate that more swords began to be produced locally. Might the import of blades via Suakim or The Nile have been reduced during that time?

Most of the blades that I have seen which seem to date from the period are clearly trade blades - does anyone know of examples from the time (in Museum collections, for example) which are likely to be local?

Could this be one?

25th October 2011, 07:18 PM	#1
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	Very nice. Iain, do you think this is a local blade or a european one stamped with maybe an armory stamp? the stamp reminds me of indian/afghani ones. It says Dawud Ali, btw.

25th October 2011, 07:42 PM	#2
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,717	Someone call me? Honestly Stephen has a lot more experience with kaskara than I do, so if he says it's a European trade blade I believe him. The style of cross guard certainly matches with an old sword. Wood is in surprisingly good shape. About the stamp, I was half hoping the translation would give a place rather than a name. The name I assume has nothing to give a regional clue? As I understand it Dawud is the Arabic version of David, so probably quite common, Ali of course is a very common name as well in the Sudan. So, I don't think it's an armoury stamp. I'm wondering if some enterprising merchant stamped a batch of blades he imported or bought up? Would be a decent marketing trick perhaps, as in "I have a Dawud Ali blade and it works great! You should go get one as well!". That's about the only thing I can think of. As Norman points out, I really doubt this was a one off. Cheers, Iain

25th October 2011, 08:36 PM	#3
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	Oh haha, sorry I somehow thought you have made this topic! Valid opinion, I'd wait for Stephen's assessment. A very interesting piece non the less!

25th October 2011, 11:41 PM	#4
stephen wood Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 227	...thank you for your interest in this one. Did I post them upside down? I can't find a Sultan of Darfur or a King of Sennar with that name - the merchant idea is quite plausible. It does seem to be a first in that while engraved or etched inscriptions abound, I have never come across an Arabic stamp on one of these swords. Is it a tughra?

25th October 2011, 11:54 PM	#5
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,717	Not a tughra as far as I've seen them if you mean the classical definition of an Ottaman ruler's stamp... I also think it's odd this is only a name, not a phrase, a verse or anything else. Glad the merchant idea seems plausible, because beyond that I'm out of ideas.

1st November 2011, 12:05 PM	#8
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,717	Hi Jim, The more I think about it, the less likely I think this was a local Sudanese application. If we look at why and how local marks were applied it was usually for talismanic reasons or to imply European levels of quality. As the name on this stamp does not seem to be a known local ruler or religious figure, I think we can rule out any such properties. Additionally names and religious inscriptions tended to be etched or carved in, not stamped. I agree with A. Alnakkas that there is a resemblance to armoury stamps from India. I lack the expertise to know if this example is in that style or not though? Perhaps one of the Indian experts can weigh in on the issue? All in all an intriguing sword, I love these odd pieces that do not confirm to the textbook examples! Cheers, Iain

1st November 2011, 11:25 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,284	Thanks very much Iain, perhaps Stephen might bring in his expertise to help with these thoughts. Seems like the posting over on the other forum is at a bit of a standstill as well. It seems like most of the Indian/Afghan stamps were either in square or circular cartouche, and the ones I have seen were in Urdu..but the configuration of the characters in this seem quite similar. All the best, Jim

1st November 2011, 11:49 PM	#10
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	hmm, well the stamp has a common name through out the muslim world. Be it urdu, arabic or persian.. it will still be written all the same.

22nd November 2011, 01:42 PM	#12
stephen wood Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 227	I have read that during the Mahdiyya and the Khalifate that more swords began to be produced locally. Might the import of blades via Suakim or The Nile have been reduced during that time? Most of the blades that I have seen which seem to date from the period are clearly trade blades - does anyone know of examples from the time (in Museum collections, for example) which are likely to be local? Could this be one?