Kattara for comments

ariel · 25th October 2011, 02:54 AM

Can we simplify it?
Wouldn't it be reasonable to suggest, that the Old Kattara is just a variant of the pre-islamic straight-bladed Arab sword?

Arab invasion of Persia put them in contact with equally straight-bladed Iranian swords, so nothing changed at the beginning.

From conquered Persia they attempted to invade Europe from the East, but encountered Khazars, who were armed with true sabers. And that's when the Arabs switched to the curved blade. Persians might have taken it from them, or from the Turkic or Mongolian invaders.

The straight blade coexisted for a while, finding its way to Mamluks, Berbers and finally to Spain ( jineta). Subsequently, the most primitive tribes, Sudanese and Tuaregs, adopted it and preserved the form up to the contemporary tourist traps.
No need to invoke the imported blades for the early straight Arab blades. They had them from the beginning. The Portugese might have been surprised to find that their rapiers were identical to the Omani kattaras. Later on, everybody imported blades from everywhere, just like today upper-class americans import italian shoes, german cars and french perfume, while they import Mac Donalds and blue jeans.

Jim McDougall · 25th October 2011, 04:46 AM

The karabela hilt broadsword shown by A. Ainakkas is actually of a type mentioned in Elgood (1994, p.16) where they are described as with nimcha type blades, hilt karabella like in form with sheet or other metal partly covering the horn or wood grips. It is noted that Arabian traders claim these are often in suqs in Riyadh but are acquired in Yemen.
He also cites E.W.Lane writing in Cairo in 1835 ("The Modern Egyptians", 1836, repr. 1908) describing import and export of straight sword blades from Germany for the Nubians and that these are the type seen on kaskaras.
Actually the blades seen on kaskaras are occasionally seen on kattaras as far as I have seen and recalled, and it seems that a number of blades which are straight broadswords and with Amharic script and Lion of Judah intended for Abyssinia from German producers are found hilted in San'a.

The markings seen on this blade appear to be native applications of markings known on blades from the Kirschbaum group of manufacturers in Solingen, many of which amalgamated in the 19th century...the crescent moon and grouping of stars usually appeared with 6 stars, and sometimes with three and three crescents (Bezdek, p.152)and this may be interpretative version. German blades into the Condominium in Egypt after Omdurman and British occupation often entered Red Sea trade into Aden as well, and probably from there into Yemen into the 20th c.
These kinds of hilts are relatively common but usually have the shorter blades as noted.

The use of copied markings long established in Europe, particularly Solingen, is quite common on native blades in Sudan and Egypt. Typically these were seemingly chosen for talismanic value, perceived from the attention given to the original quality implication in trading the blades. While use of the running wolf had waned in Europe after the 18th century, it had found new life in Caucasian blades well known in Arabia from Ottoman presence, and was also known in the Sudan presumably from related trade networks of theRed Sea.

Best regards,
Jim

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 26th October 2011, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Can we simplify it?
Wouldn't it be reasonable to suggest, that the Old Kattara is just a variant of the pre-islamic straight-bladed Arab sword?

Arab invasion of Persia put them in contact with equally straight-bladed Iranian swords, so nothing changed at the beginning.

From conquered Persia they attempted to invade Europe from the East, but encountered Khazars, who were armed with true sabers. And that's when the Arabs switched to the curved blade. Persians might have taken it from them, or from the Turkic or Mongolian invaders.

The straight blade coexisted for a while, finding its way to Mamluks, Berbers and finally to Spain ( jineta). Subsequently, the most primitive tribes, Sudanese and Tuaregs, adopted it and preserved the form up to the contemporary tourist traps.
No need to invoke the imported blades for the early straight Arab blades. They had them from the beginning. The Portugese might have been surprised to find that their rapiers were identical to the Omani kattaras. Later on, everybody imported blades from everywhere, just like today upper-class americans import italian shoes, german cars and french perfume, while they import Mac Donalds and blue jeans.

Salaams Ariel, Needless to say that by typing blue jeans, french perfume or Mac Donalds into the forum search your letter will be forever more traceable !

I suppose what you are getting at is a "so what question"..? I think ours is a very viable research thread because "The Forum" is thus engaged in finding the truth about a system so long shrouded in mystery.

We may at last be able to pinpoint sword data on, an as yet, never identified manufacturing centre. It could be that the myth of European Trade Blades (concerning specifically the New Omani Kattara circa 17thC) can be identified. We may even have spotted the makers of the original Omani Battle Sword of the 8th Century which you may be getting at in your first paragraph since clearly it is influenced by the Abbassid weapon.

Of course there is always the other possibility that we are wrong but we have to give it a full airing no?

Notice that I use the term "The Forum" since it is a combined effort to discover the facts. Any positive input is gladly received since it may lead to a result. You will recall we traced the Old Omani Battle Sword to 751 AD (a date accepted in this Forum) using archive data from Traditional Omani music, poetry, and dance !

Now lets get after the proper information on the weapon(the new Omani Kattara) which superceded that sword "apparently" in about the 17th C.

Regards,
Ibrahiim.

ariel · 27th October 2011, 02:47 AM

No doubt I am fully supportive of your effort and applaud it.

My point was different, and likely I did not express it clearly enough:

Are we really sure that Omani and ( in general) early pre-islamic Arab swords owe their existence to Iran? Arabs had their own weapons and at that time virtually all swords everywhere ( with the exception of Asian nomads and ancient India) were straight-bladed. No need to borrow from the Sassanian/ Achemenian ( not Abbasids: those belong to 16-17 century) examples. And, of course, 7-8 century Omani swords did not use European trade blades. Later on, for sure, just like anybody else. We are in complete agreement here.
With best wishes.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 27th October 2011, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

No doubt I am fully supportive of your effort and applaud it.

My point was different, and likely I did not express it clearly enough:

Are we really sure that Omani and ( in general) early pre-islamic Arab swords owe their existence to Iran? Arabs had their own weapons and at that time virtually all swords everywhere ( with the exception of Asian nomads and ancient India) were straight-bladed. No need to borrow from the Sassanian/ Achemenian ( not Abbasids: those belong to 16-17 century) examples. And, of course, 7-8 century Omani swords did not use European trade blades. Later on, for sure, just like anybody else. We are in complete agreement here.
With best wishes.

Salaams Ariel, No. Pre Islamic Blades are not involved in the discussion. There are some Arab weapons that do owe their origins to Persia for example Shamshir, Mussandam Axes, and possibly others however I dont have evidence of a link to either of the Kattara; Old or New. The old is attached in origin to the Abbassid; see my letter on this thread. ( The Abbassid 8th/9th century troops were garrissoned here in Buraimi and Omanis were at war with them and used the Short Omani Battle Sword ... The Old Kattara, against them.)
The New is under discussion now. The New flexible long dancing Kattara; a supposedly 17th C weapon and supposedly a European Trade Blade. Ibrahiim.

25th October 2011, 02:54 AM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Can we simplify it? Wouldn't it be reasonable to suggest, that the Old Kattara is just a variant of the pre-islamic straight-bladed Arab sword? Arab invasion of Persia put them in contact with equally straight-bladed Iranian swords, so nothing changed at the beginning. From conquered Persia they attempted to invade Europe from the East, but encountered Khazars, who were armed with true sabers. And that's when the Arabs switched to the curved blade. Persians might have taken it from them, or from the Turkic or Mongolian invaders. The straight blade coexisted for a while, finding its way to Mamluks, Berbers and finally to Spain ( jineta). Subsequently, the most primitive tribes, Sudanese and Tuaregs, adopted it and preserved the form up to the contemporary tourist traps. No need to invoke the imported blades for the early straight Arab blades. They had them from the beginning. The Portugese might have been surprised to find that their rapiers were identical to the Omani kattaras. Later on, everybody imported blades from everywhere, just like today upper-class americans import italian shoes, german cars and french perfume, while they import Mac Donalds and blue jeans.

25th October 2011, 04:46 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,454	The karabela hilt broadsword shown by A. Ainakkas is actually of a type mentioned in Elgood (1994, p.16) where they are described as with nimcha type blades, hilt karabella like in form with sheet or other metal partly covering the horn or wood grips. It is noted that Arabian traders claim these are often in suqs in Riyadh but are acquired in Yemen. He also cites E.W.Lane writing in Cairo in 1835 ("The Modern Egyptians", 1836, repr. 1908) describing import and export of straight sword blades from Germany for the Nubians and that these are the type seen on kaskaras. Actually the blades seen on kaskaras are occasionally seen on kattaras as far as I have seen and recalled, and it seems that a number of blades which are straight broadswords and with Amharic script and Lion of Judah intended for Abyssinia from German producers are found hilted in San'a. The markings seen on this blade appear to be native applications of markings known on blades from the Kirschbaum group of manufacturers in Solingen, many of which amalgamated in the 19th century...the crescent moon and grouping of stars usually appeared with 6 stars, and sometimes with three and three crescents (Bezdek, p.152)and this may be interpretative version. German blades into the Condominium in Egypt after Omdurman and British occupation often entered Red Sea trade into Aden as well, and probably from there into Yemen into the 20th c. These kinds of hilts are relatively common but usually have the shorter blades as noted. The use of copied markings long established in Europe, particularly Solingen, is quite common on native blades in Sudan and Egypt. Typically these were seemingly chosen for talismanic value, perceived from the attention given to the original quality implication in trading the blades. While use of the running wolf had waned in Europe after the 18th century, it had found new life in Caucasian blades well known in Arabia from Ottoman presence, and was also known in the Sudan presumably from related trade networks of theRed Sea. Best regards, Jim

27th October 2011, 02:47 AM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	No doubt I am fully supportive of your effort and applaud it. My point was different, and likely I did not express it clearly enough: Are we really sure that Omani and ( in general) early pre-islamic Arab swords owe their existence to Iran? Arabs had their own weapons and at that time virtually all swords everywhere ( with the exception of Asian nomads and ancient India) were straight-bladed. No need to borrow from the Sassanian/ Achemenian ( not Abbasids: those belong to 16-17 century) examples. And, of course, 7-8 century Omani swords did not use European trade blades. Later on, for sure, just like anybody else. We are in complete agreement here. With best wishes.