Kattara for comments

Jim McDougall · 24th October 2011, 07:10 PM

Thank you Ibrahiim for returning this thread to topic, and again it is a fascinating topic which truly needs to be discussed to learn more on the development of swords in these regions.
I need to review notes to readdress some points, for example that the adoption of European blades, and in many cases examples from India and the Caucusus occurred in the 17th century onwards is primarily..availability. It is all very much commercially rather than culturally oriented, and much as in the Sudan. The sword until relatively modern times remained the weapon of nobles and individuals of means and standing. As trade strengthened with exposure to wider scope of materials, particularly with colonial incursions, the inclusion of sword blades also increased. In the Saharan routes, Kano was oe key point of dispersal....in the Middle East, Damascus was a key hub, in India there were a number of these many on the Malabar Coast. In Arabia, it was of course Oman, and properly, Muscat. This was a point of contact where merchants traded and dispersed wares into East African and Red Sea trade, and of course the movement of these materials entered land routes.

As we have discussed, the interior of Oman, strictly Ibadi, carried on trade independantly via camel routes through regions not necessarily within the spheres of maritime trade, but still it would be impossible to consider that goods did not diffuse via route confluences at many points. The forms of 'traditional' kattara with downward quillons and the distinct mosque domed pommel would seem to have been maintained strictly within fundamental standards and not influenced nor refurbished with European blades in most cases I am aware of. I think that the ancestry of this form can likely be traced to early Abbasid forms, and remained in use traditionally into fairly modern times, contemporary with the coastal kattaras.

The coastal (Muscat) cylindrical hilted versions of kattara again, as discussed, seem to be largely mounted with trade blades, and the adoption of this distinct form seems to be keenly associated to the increased import of trade broadsword blades.
BTW, Stu, I believe the stamp on the blade you show in one from the Caucasian regions, and these are seen it seems usually on qama and other weapons produced in Transcaucasian regions. I believe it is known in Arabia as the number of blades brought into many regions were via Ottoman auspices and of course via Syria. I have seen numbers of Syrian hilt sabres with Hungarian blades misidentified as East European sabres with notably East European inscriptions.
The sword shown by A. Ainakkas is one of relative commanality and indeed of Yemeni type with it seems most of them being latter 19th into early 20th but often with refurbished older blades. The 'karabela' style hilt with subtle trilobate pommel is characteristic on a number of Yemeni, particularly Hadhramaut forms.

All best regards,
Jim

TVV · 24th October 2011, 08:12 PM

Sorry Ibrahim, the evidence is overwhelmingly in support of the use of trade blades on the longer, 18-19th century kattaras. If you go all the way back to the very first post in this thread you will see a kattara blade with a variety of markings - a termometer, eyelashes and crosses. All of those are quite common and can be traced back to well known earlier European examples.

Per Elgood, many of these blades were exported to Alexandria and Cairo, from where they were distributed throughout Arabia. If the Omanis were able to adopt the curved blade (most likely from Caucasian shashkas), then I do not see why they would not adopt the longer broadsword blade a century or so earlier, especially in light of the fact that German and Hungarian blades were very popular throughout the rest of the Arab Peninsula.

Personally, I think you put way too much stock in the cultural and religious barriers to the adoption of weapon forms, both in the case of the Omanis and the Portuguese. The hard evidence in the blades supports the theory that weapon forms diffused through trade, whereas your observations are so far entirely based on conjecture.

Regards,
Teodor

A.alnakkas · 24th October 2011, 08:24 PM

The use of European trade blades ranged from al-Sham to Yemen. Denial of it is refuted by material evidence and "natural" evidence (lack of steel manufacturers ment expensive local swords. Buying european blades was the cheapest option)

Followers of Imam Abdulwahab for example didnt have any problem using Lion stamped blades or bu-askiri (clauberg) stamped blades. I highly doubt they had the luxury to have a problem :-)

kahnjar1 · 25th October 2011, 02:28 AM

Now we are getting back to some sort of sensibility at last. Thanks Jim, TVV, and Lofty. Of course there was wide spread use of trade blades throughout the colonial territories, including Oman. I will now show the full blade with the mark, which by the way came from Ibrahiim himself, and was described by him as a curved Kattara. So that rather blows the theory that the Omanis did not use trade blades, but made their own.

Jim McDougall · 25th October 2011, 02:39 AM

Stu thank you for showing the entire sword, and interesting to see the curved blade. If I recall that stamped figure is similar to markings I have seen on blades from Tblisi in Georgia, which was a busy trade center and there were numbers of Armenian smiths working there in the 19th century.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 25th October 2011, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Now we are getting back to some sort of sensibility at last. Thanks Jim, TVV, and Lofty. Of course there was wide spread use of trade blades throughout the colonial territories, including Oman. I will now show the full blade with the mark, which by the way came from Ibrahiim himself, and was described by him as a curved Kattara. So that rather blows the theory that the Omanis did not use trade blades, but made their own.

Salaams,
I am referring to one specific sword style "The straight 17thC Omani Kattara" which I will attempt to show is home grown not imported though hybrids will exist; infact I have even seen Wootz bladed Omani Kattara on the forum.. There are bound to be a few one- offs but I am concerned with the Omani Kattara proper which I believe originates in RAK. RAS AL KHAIMAH.
The weapon you display is a Sayf. It appears to be a European imported trade blade. It carries the blade marks now known to be used in RAK amongst many others such as the Crown Lion Stars and God Is Great insignia. This is an Omani Sayf made or constructed in RAK.

Regards,
Ibrahiim.

ariel · 25th October 2011, 02:54 AM

Can we simplify it?
Wouldn't it be reasonable to suggest, that the Old Kattara is just a variant of the pre-islamic straight-bladed Arab sword?

Arab invasion of Persia put them in contact with equally straight-bladed Iranian swords, so nothing changed at the beginning.

From conquered Persia they attempted to invade Europe from the East, but encountered Khazars, who were armed with true sabers. And that's when the Arabs switched to the curved blade. Persians might have taken it from them, or from the Turkic or Mongolian invaders.

The straight blade coexisted for a while, finding its way to Mamluks, Berbers and finally to Spain ( jineta). Subsequently, the most primitive tribes, Sudanese and Tuaregs, adopted it and preserved the form up to the contemporary tourist traps.
No need to invoke the imported blades for the early straight Arab blades. They had them from the beginning. The Portugese might have been surprised to find that their rapiers were identical to the Omani kattaras. Later on, everybody imported blades from everywhere, just like today upper-class americans import italian shoes, german cars and french perfume, while they import Mac Donalds and blue jeans.

Jim McDougall · 25th October 2011, 04:46 AM

The karabela hilt broadsword shown by A. Ainakkas is actually of a type mentioned in Elgood (1994, p.16) where they are described as with nimcha type blades, hilt karabella like in form with sheet or other metal partly covering the horn or wood grips. It is noted that Arabian traders claim these are often in suqs in Riyadh but are acquired in Yemen.
He also cites E.W.Lane writing in Cairo in 1835 ("The Modern Egyptians", 1836, repr. 1908) describing import and export of straight sword blades from Germany for the Nubians and that these are the type seen on kaskaras.
Actually the blades seen on kaskaras are occasionally seen on kattaras as far as I have seen and recalled, and it seems that a number of blades which are straight broadswords and with Amharic script and Lion of Judah intended for Abyssinia from German producers are found hilted in San'a.

The markings seen on this blade appear to be native applications of markings known on blades from the Kirschbaum group of manufacturers in Solingen, many of which amalgamated in the 19th century...the crescent moon and grouping of stars usually appeared with 6 stars, and sometimes with three and three crescents (Bezdek, p.152)and this may be interpretative version. German blades into the Condominium in Egypt after Omdurman and British occupation often entered Red Sea trade into Aden as well, and probably from there into Yemen into the 20th c.
These kinds of hilts are relatively common but usually have the shorter blades as noted.

The use of copied markings long established in Europe, particularly Solingen, is quite common on native blades in Sudan and Egypt. Typically these were seemingly chosen for talismanic value, perceived from the attention given to the original quality implication in trading the blades. While use of the running wolf had waned in Europe after the 18th century, it had found new life in Caucasian blades well known in Arabia from Ottoman presence, and was also known in the Sudan presumably from related trade networks of theRed Sea.

Best regards,
Jim

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 26th October 2011, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Can we simplify it?
Wouldn't it be reasonable to suggest, that the Old Kattara is just a variant of the pre-islamic straight-bladed Arab sword?

Arab invasion of Persia put them in contact with equally straight-bladed Iranian swords, so nothing changed at the beginning.

From conquered Persia they attempted to invade Europe from the East, but encountered Khazars, who were armed with true sabers. And that's when the Arabs switched to the curved blade. Persians might have taken it from them, or from the Turkic or Mongolian invaders.

The straight blade coexisted for a while, finding its way to Mamluks, Berbers and finally to Spain ( jineta). Subsequently, the most primitive tribes, Sudanese and Tuaregs, adopted it and preserved the form up to the contemporary tourist traps.
No need to invoke the imported blades for the early straight Arab blades. They had them from the beginning. The Portugese might have been surprised to find that their rapiers were identical to the Omani kattaras. Later on, everybody imported blades from everywhere, just like today upper-class americans import italian shoes, german cars and french perfume, while they import Mac Donalds and blue jeans.

Salaams Ariel, Needless to say that by typing blue jeans, french perfume or Mac Donalds into the forum search your letter will be forever more traceable !

I suppose what you are getting at is a "so what question"..? I think ours is a very viable research thread because "The Forum" is thus engaged in finding the truth about a system so long shrouded in mystery.

We may at last be able to pinpoint sword data on, an as yet, never identified manufacturing centre. It could be that the myth of European Trade Blades (concerning specifically the New Omani Kattara circa 17thC) can be identified. We may even have spotted the makers of the original Omani Battle Sword of the 8th Century which you may be getting at in your first paragraph since clearly it is influenced by the Abbassid weapon.

Of course there is always the other possibility that we are wrong but we have to give it a full airing no?

Notice that I use the term "The Forum" since it is a combined effort to discover the facts. Any positive input is gladly received since it may lead to a result. You will recall we traced the Old Omani Battle Sword to 751 AD (a date accepted in this Forum) using archive data from Traditional Omani music, poetry, and dance !

Now lets get after the proper information on the weapon(the new Omani Kattara) which superceded that sword "apparently" in about the 17th C.

Regards,
Ibrahiim.

ariel · 27th October 2011, 02:47 AM

No doubt I am fully supportive of your effort and applaud it.

My point was different, and likely I did not express it clearly enough:

Are we really sure that Omani and ( in general) early pre-islamic Arab swords owe their existence to Iran? Arabs had their own weapons and at that time virtually all swords everywhere ( with the exception of Asian nomads and ancient India) were straight-bladed. No need to borrow from the Sassanian/ Achemenian ( not Abbasids: those belong to 16-17 century) examples. And, of course, 7-8 century Omani swords did not use European trade blades. Later on, for sure, just like anybody else. We are in complete agreement here.
With best wishes.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 27th October 2011, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

No doubt I am fully supportive of your effort and applaud it.

My point was different, and likely I did not express it clearly enough:

Are we really sure that Omani and ( in general) early pre-islamic Arab swords owe their existence to Iran? Arabs had their own weapons and at that time virtually all swords everywhere ( with the exception of Asian nomads and ancient India) were straight-bladed. No need to borrow from the Sassanian/ Achemenian ( not Abbasids: those belong to 16-17 century) examples. And, of course, 7-8 century Omani swords did not use European trade blades. Later on, for sure, just like anybody else. We are in complete agreement here.
With best wishes.

Salaams Ariel, No. Pre Islamic Blades are not involved in the discussion. There are some Arab weapons that do owe their origins to Persia for example Shamshir, Mussandam Axes, and possibly others however I dont have evidence of a link to either of the Kattara; Old or New. The old is attached in origin to the Abbassid; see my letter on this thread. ( The Abbassid 8th/9th century troops were garrissoned here in Buraimi and Omanis were at war with them and used the Short Omani Battle Sword ... The Old Kattara, against them.)
The New is under discussion now. The New flexible long dancing Kattara; a supposedly 17th C weapon and supposedly a European Trade Blade. Ibrahiim.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 25th October 2011, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

The use of European trade blades ranged from al-Sham to Yemen. Denial of it is refuted by material evidence and "natural" evidence (lack of steel manufacturers ment expensive local swords. Buying european blades was the cheapest option)

Followers of Imam Abdulwahab for example didnt have any problem using Lion stamped blades or bu-askiri (clauberg) stamped blades. I highly doubt they had the luxury to have a problem :-)

Salaams, I agree that European trade blades are all over the peninsular..and Africa, The Red Sea etc In the form of Sayf styles..and straight swords in Africa especially Ethiopia etc etc. ~ Where I disagree is on the straight Omani Kattara, long, flexible weapons which I have recently identified as from Ras al Khaimah. The Shihuh have been in blade making for generations though I thought they were only knife makers.

Most, indeed all, of the RAK Blade marks are in fact Arabian or derived from close by(Crown from Victorian India). Stars and Moon are Arabian, Lion is Arabian and has "God is Great" on the underbelly. I would appreciate you having a look at that lion (at #98 photo 2.) as I thought I was imagining the wording in the Lions belly !
Your input is much appreciated.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 25th October 2011, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

Sorry Ibrahim, the evidence is overwhelmingly in support of the use of trade blades on the longer, 18-19th century kattaras. If you go all the way back to the very first post in this thread you will see a kattara blade with a variety of markings - a termometer, eyelashes and crosses. All of those are quite common and can be traced back to well known earlier European examples.

Per Elgood, many of these blades were exported to Alexandria and Cairo, from where they were distributed throughout Arabia. If the Omanis were able to adopt the curved blade (most likely from Caucasian shashkas), then I do not see why they would not adopt the longer broadsword blade a century or so earlier, especially in light of the fact that German and Hungarian blades were very popular throughout the rest of the Arab Peninsula.

Personally, I think you put way too much stock in the cultural and religious barriers to the adoption of weapon forms, both in the case of the Omanis and the Portuguese. The hard evidence in the blades supports the theory that weapon forms diffused through trade, whereas your observations are so far entirely based on conjecture.

Regards,
Teodor

Salaams Teodor. Please understand that I only seek the facts whether they turn out as based upon a firm religious construction such as the Funun, or some other solid factual historical reference must be viewed in that light; Just the Facts.
I have discovered a possible and very strong likely source of weapons possibly stretching back down the ages centred on Ras Al Khaimah. Could it be that the Shihuh sword makers emigrated from Persia with this sword making expertise and produced in possibly the 8th C the old Omani Kattara with turned down quillons etc... Geographically it is a fit. It was all one country then. The camel train line links RAK with Nizwa.
Is it possible they continued to turn out swords and are solely responsible for the new Kattara which superceded the old Omani sword in the 17th /18th C.? Not withstanding some few hybrid or similar blades so tiny in number as to be perhaps not relevant to the real origin...RAK.
However what transpires is an eye opener; RAK makes Omani swords today. They use a variety of maker stamps some original, some copied. They use Lion, Crown, Star and Islamic verse God is Great etc and I have the pictures and have met the swordmakers. It should not be a surprise to learn that father to son sword making has gone on uninterupted there for generations and given the opportunity I will follow the line as far back as possible ~ People may be surprised by the outcome but I have a feeling it will shock some...after all I am about to attempt to blow the theory specifically regarding Omani Kattara European trade blades, out of the water.(Omani Kattara straight blades made in RAK not imported !)

You will see a photo run of RAK blade stamps shortly

Regards,
Ibrahiim.

25th October 2011, 02:28 AM	#4
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,789	Now we are getting back to some sort of sensibility at last. Thanks Jim, TVV, and Lofty. Of course there was wide spread use of trade blades throughout the colonial territories, including Oman. I will now show the full blade with the mark, which by the way came from Ibrahiim himself, and was described by him as a curved Kattara. So that rather blows the theory that the Omanis did not use trade blades, but made their own. Attached Images

24th October 2011, 07:10 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,288	Thank you Ibrahiim for returning this thread to topic, and again it is a fascinating topic which truly needs to be discussed to learn more on the development of swords in these regions. I need to review notes to readdress some points, for example that the adoption of European blades, and in many cases examples from India and the Caucusus occurred in the 17th century onwards is primarily..availability. It is all very much commercially rather than culturally oriented, and much as in the Sudan. The sword until relatively modern times remained the weapon of nobles and individuals of means and standing. As trade strengthened with exposure to wider scope of materials, particularly with colonial incursions, the inclusion of sword blades also increased. In the Saharan routes, Kano was oe key point of dispersal....in the Middle East, Damascus was a key hub, in India there were a number of these many on the Malabar Coast. In Arabia, it was of course Oman, and properly, Muscat. This was a point of contact where merchants traded and dispersed wares into East African and Red Sea trade, and of course the movement of these materials entered land routes. As we have discussed, the interior of Oman, strictly Ibadi, carried on trade independantly via camel routes through regions not necessarily within the spheres of maritime trade, but still it would be impossible to consider that goods did not diffuse via route confluences at many points. The forms of 'traditional' kattara with downward quillons and the distinct mosque domed pommel would seem to have been maintained strictly within fundamental standards and not influenced nor refurbished with European blades in most cases I am aware of. I think that the ancestry of this form can likely be traced to early Abbasid forms, and remained in use traditionally into fairly modern times, contemporary with the coastal kattaras. The coastal (Muscat) cylindrical hilted versions of kattara again, as discussed, seem to be largely mounted with trade blades, and the adoption of this distinct form seems to be keenly associated to the increased import of trade broadsword blades. BTW, Stu, I believe the stamp on the blade you show in one from the Caucasian regions, and these are seen it seems usually on qama and other weapons produced in Transcaucasian regions. I believe it is known in Arabia as the number of blades brought into many regions were via Ottoman auspices and of course via Syria. I have seen numbers of Syrian hilt sabres with Hungarian blades misidentified as East European sabres with notably East European inscriptions. The sword shown by A. Ainakkas is one of relative commanality and indeed of Yemeni type with it seems most of them being latter 19th into early 20th but often with refurbished older blades. The 'karabela' style hilt with subtle trilobate pommel is characteristic on a number of Yemeni, particularly Hadhramaut forms. All best regards, Jim

24th October 2011, 08:12 PM	#2
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,664	Sorry Ibrahim, the evidence is overwhelmingly in support of the use of trade blades on the longer, 18-19th century kattaras. If you go all the way back to the very first post in this thread you will see a kattara blade with a variety of markings - a termometer, eyelashes and crosses. All of those are quite common and can be traced back to well known earlier European examples. Per Elgood, many of these blades were exported to Alexandria and Cairo, from where they were distributed throughout Arabia. If the Omanis were able to adopt the curved blade (most likely from Caucasian shashkas), then I do not see why they would not adopt the longer broadsword blade a century or so earlier, especially in light of the fact that German and Hungarian blades were very popular throughout the rest of the Arab Peninsula. Personally, I think you put way too much stock in the cultural and religious barriers to the adoption of weapon forms, both in the case of the Omanis and the Portuguese. The hard evidence in the blades supports the theory that weapon forms diffused through trade, whereas your observations are so far entirely based on conjecture. Regards, Teodor

24th October 2011, 08:24 PM	#3
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	The use of European trade blades ranged from al-Sham to Yemen. Denial of it is refuted by material evidence and "natural" evidence (lack of steel manufacturers ment expensive local swords. Buying european blades was the cheapest option) Followers of Imam Abdulwahab for example didnt have any problem using Lion stamped blades or bu-askiri (clauberg) stamped blades. I highly doubt they had the luxury to have a problem :-)

25th October 2011, 02:39 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,288	Stu thank you for showing the entire sword, and interesting to see the curved blade. If I recall that stamped figure is similar to markings I have seen on blades from Tblisi in Georgia, which was a busy trade center and there were numbers of Armenian smiths working there in the 19th century.

25th October 2011, 02:54 AM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Can we simplify it? Wouldn't it be reasonable to suggest, that the Old Kattara is just a variant of the pre-islamic straight-bladed Arab sword? Arab invasion of Persia put them in contact with equally straight-bladed Iranian swords, so nothing changed at the beginning. From conquered Persia they attempted to invade Europe from the East, but encountered Khazars, who were armed with true sabers. And that's when the Arabs switched to the curved blade. Persians might have taken it from them, or from the Turkic or Mongolian invaders. The straight blade coexisted for a while, finding its way to Mamluks, Berbers and finally to Spain ( jineta). Subsequently, the most primitive tribes, Sudanese and Tuaregs, adopted it and preserved the form up to the contemporary tourist traps. No need to invoke the imported blades for the early straight Arab blades. They had them from the beginning. The Portugese might have been surprised to find that their rapiers were identical to the Omani kattaras. Later on, everybody imported blades from everywhere, just like today upper-class americans import italian shoes, german cars and french perfume, while they import Mac Donalds and blue jeans.

25th October 2011, 04:46 AM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,288	The karabela hilt broadsword shown by A. Ainakkas is actually of a type mentioned in Elgood (1994, p.16) where they are described as with nimcha type blades, hilt karabella like in form with sheet or other metal partly covering the horn or wood grips. It is noted that Arabian traders claim these are often in suqs in Riyadh but are acquired in Yemen. He also cites E.W.Lane writing in Cairo in 1835 ("The Modern Egyptians", 1836, repr. 1908) describing import and export of straight sword blades from Germany for the Nubians and that these are the type seen on kaskaras. Actually the blades seen on kaskaras are occasionally seen on kattaras as far as I have seen and recalled, and it seems that a number of blades which are straight broadswords and with Amharic script and Lion of Judah intended for Abyssinia from German producers are found hilted in San'a. The markings seen on this blade appear to be native applications of markings known on blades from the Kirschbaum group of manufacturers in Solingen, many of which amalgamated in the 19th century...the crescent moon and grouping of stars usually appeared with 6 stars, and sometimes with three and three crescents (Bezdek, p.152)and this may be interpretative version. German blades into the Condominium in Egypt after Omdurman and British occupation often entered Red Sea trade into Aden as well, and probably from there into Yemen into the 20th c. These kinds of hilts are relatively common but usually have the shorter blades as noted. The use of copied markings long established in Europe, particularly Solingen, is quite common on native blades in Sudan and Egypt. Typically these were seemingly chosen for talismanic value, perceived from the attention given to the original quality implication in trading the blades. While use of the running wolf had waned in Europe after the 18th century, it had found new life in Caucasian blades well known in Arabia from Ottoman presence, and was also known in the Sudan presumably from related trade networks of theRed Sea. Best regards, Jim

27th October 2011, 02:47 AM	#10
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	No doubt I am fully supportive of your effort and applaud it. My point was different, and likely I did not express it clearly enough: Are we really sure that Omani and ( in general) early pre-islamic Arab swords owe their existence to Iran? Arabs had their own weapons and at that time virtually all swords everywhere ( with the exception of Asian nomads and ancient India) were straight-bladed. No need to borrow from the Sassanian/ Achemenian ( not Abbasids: those belong to 16-17 century) examples. And, of course, 7-8 century Omani swords did not use European trade blades. Later on, for sure, just like anybody else. We are in complete agreement here. With best wishes.