West African ? sword for I.D. and comment.

colin henshaw · 18th October 2011, 12:16 PM

Hi

I would like to add a couple of ideas on these swords, particularly with reference to the distinctive hilt form.

West Africa came into contact with Europeans quite early on (15th century ?), and this had an impact on their material culture in a way not to be found in Central and Eastern Africa. Could it be that the hilts on these swords derive from European weapons ? The rondel medieval dagger comes to mind...

In addition, the form of hilt to be found on Ashanti (Akan) swords is also quite similar in form to that found on these Mandingo/Mende weapons.

A couple of images are attached to illustrate.

Of course its also still quite possible this hilt form developed within Africa quite independently.

Regards.

Iain · 18th October 2011, 01:33 PM

Hi Colin,

I love this type of discussion!

The rondel angel is intriguing, but first thoughts are that the rondel is a form marked by its flat terminals on the pommel and guard. The Ashanti swords, or what we are looking at from the Tomba/Mende are rounded. Which is not say the idea isn't without merit.

However, as I usually do with takouba, I like to examine things from the angle of practicality and how a form might be arrived at.

Given that these hilts are usually wood (the Ashanti example is somewhat more ceremonial) the shape seems like the most logical form you could come up with when trying to get a bit of hand protection, a bit of balance and a bit narrow enough to wrap your fingers around.

By which I mean it's not a hard shape to arrive at when putting together a weapon. I'm not sure Europeans need to be brought into the equation to explain it. For one thing, we don't have anything predating the Europeans which creates a big "oh" moment when things obviously changed. At least that we know of... The usual unfortunate caveat when dealing with African arms and armour. But just because we don't know doesn't mean I think, that we have to assume some sort of radical shift when Europeans arrived.

I guess my main point is, do we have any reason to suspect it required outside influence to create this hilt form? Personally I don't think so.

More direct European influence can be found for example in this Christies auction from a number of years ago. http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/l...jectID=4515427

Just my two cents/pence. :-)

Iain

Mauro · 18th October 2011, 05:24 PM

I share the ideas of Ian that the possibility of influence are minimal although it is difficult to ascertain. Moreover, if we have to find an influence from the 14-15th century weapons I suppose we should to look at swords and not at daggers. Again we have should have to look at Kaskara, Takouba and even Mandingo swords or the nice example that Colin presented from a previous thread.
Ian why you do not start a thread showing the Mossi sword ?? I also have a Mossi sword and we could compare them.

18th October 2011, 12:16 PM	#1
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,429	Hi I would like to add a couple of ideas on these swords, particularly with reference to the distinctive hilt form. West Africa came into contact with Europeans quite early on (15th century ?), and this had an impact on their material culture in a way not to be found in Central and Eastern Africa. Could it be that the hilts on these swords derive from European weapons ? The rondel medieval dagger comes to mind... In addition, the form of hilt to be found on Ashanti (Akan) swords is also quite similar in form to that found on these Mandingo/Mende weapons. A couple of images are attached to illustrate. Of course its also still quite possible this hilt form developed within Africa quite independently. Regards. Attached Images

18th October 2011, 01:33 PM	#2
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,719	Hi Colin, I love this type of discussion! The rondel angel is intriguing, but first thoughts are that the rondel is a form marked by its flat terminals on the pommel and guard. The Ashanti swords, or what we are looking at from the Tomba/Mende are rounded. Which is not say the idea isn't without merit. However, as I usually do with takouba, I like to examine things from the angle of practicality and how a form might be arrived at. Given that these hilts are usually wood (the Ashanti example is somewhat more ceremonial) the shape seems like the most logical form you could come up with when trying to get a bit of hand protection, a bit of balance and a bit narrow enough to wrap your fingers around. By which I mean it's not a hard shape to arrive at when putting together a weapon. I'm not sure Europeans need to be brought into the equation to explain it. For one thing, we don't have anything predating the Europeans which creates a big "oh" moment when things obviously changed. At least that we know of... The usual unfortunate caveat when dealing with African arms and armour. But just because we don't know doesn't mean I think, that we have to assume some sort of radical shift when Europeans arrived. I guess my main point is, do we have any reason to suspect it required outside influence to create this hilt form? Personally I don't think so. More direct European influence can be found for example in this Christies auction from a number of years ago. http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/l...jectID=4515427 Just my two cents/pence. :-) Iain

18th October 2011, 05:24 PM	#3
Mauro Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 83	I share the ideas of Ian that the possibility of influence are minimal although it is difficult to ascertain. Moreover, if we have to find an influence from the 14-15th century weapons I suppose we should to look at swords and not at daggers. Again we have should have to look at Kaskara, Takouba and even Mandingo swords or the nice example that Colin presented from a previous thread. Ian why you do not start a thread showing the Mossi sword ?? I also have a Mossi sword and we could compare them.