West African ? sword for I.D. and comment.

Iain · 17th October 2011, 01:21 PM

I agree there are differences between the types - but I would consider them all from the same family. Hilt style is broadly similar - wood, with bulbous protrusions to form guard and pommel (of course the Mandingo of the Sahel are using a leather hilt with a brass pommel that is entirely different). Blade style also often shares common characteristics with half moon stamps and fullers taken or influenced by takouba blades.

Mandingo curved blades are either usually French military sabre blades or native copies.

Toma also belong to the Mande linguistic group. So they should be related to some extent.

Sadly I have never seen a good resource for Mali Empire era weaponry. It is not a widely studied area I think.

Mauro · 17th October 2011, 02:10 PM

This is a quite interesting topic because it deals with the characteristics that can be used to create a hierarchy of more or less related items, in this case swords. To put a clear cut between groups is usually an individual process with a certain, sometimes large, degree of subjectivity. In this case one could also find similarities between some short Takouba and these swords. Kaskaras for example have also a scabbard that has more similarities with the Mandingo sword than these other ones where the scabbard has not an enlargement. However, in general I agree with you although I would easily say that Mende and Toma are closer than Mandingo.

Martin Lubojacky · 18th October 2011, 12:34 AM

Thank you very much for this interesting discussion, which I enjoyed a lot, just reading and learning (unfortunately nothing to add). I would be very interested in Briggs work on Saharan takoubas...(it may be there would be some info about the sword - see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/search...earchid=190791 - which is still a small mystery to me)
Regards,
Martin

Martin Lubojacky · 18th October 2011, 12:40 AM

Sorry for the wrong link (I was trying to find old thread from the list) - correct should be http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12296

Iain · 18th October 2011, 09:06 AM

Hi Martin, unfortunately Briggs has nothing really about your sword, it is really only a detailed article about . If you want I can scan and send you a copy - I have the papers somewhere in my house and will try to find them for you!

Mauro, I agree, it's very subjective topic and I would agree there are many connections also with takouba. The Sahel region was/is very interconnected and their trade routes extended into West Africa. The half moons and the triple fullers on these Toma and Mende swords are clearly taken I think from the takouba. For example I have also a Lobi ceremonial sword which is exactly in the same style as a takouba, so this style had a huge influence across this area of Africa. Wolf and Martin also have some interesting Mandara/Cameroon swords that seem related as well.

Martin Lubojacky · 18th October 2011, 12:58 PM

Thank you in advance Iain !

Iain · 18th October 2011, 01:05 PM

No problem, I forgot to write that article really only has detail about European trade blades. Almost nothing about native blades.

17th October 2011, 01:21 PM	#1
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,719	I agree there are differences between the types - but I would consider them all from the same family. Hilt style is broadly similar - wood, with bulbous protrusions to form guard and pommel (of course the Mandingo of the Sahel are using a leather hilt with a brass pommel that is entirely different). Blade style also often shares common characteristics with half moon stamps and fullers taken or influenced by takouba blades. Mandingo curved blades are either usually French military sabre blades or native copies. Toma also belong to the Mande linguistic group. So they should be related to some extent. Sadly I have never seen a good resource for Mali Empire era weaponry. It is not a widely studied area I think.

17th October 2011, 02:10 PM	#2
Mauro Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 83	This is a quite interesting topic because it deals with the characteristics that can be used to create a hierarchy of more or less related items, in this case swords. To put a clear cut between groups is usually an individual process with a certain, sometimes large, degree of subjectivity. In this case one could also find similarities between some short Takouba and these swords. Kaskaras for example have also a scabbard that has more similarities with the Mandingo sword than these other ones where the scabbard has not an enlargement. However, in general I agree with you although I would easily say that Mende and Toma are closer than Mandingo.

18th October 2011, 12:34 AM	#3
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 845	Thank you very much for this interesting discussion, which I enjoyed a lot, just reading and learning (unfortunately nothing to add). I would be very interested in Briggs work on Saharan takoubas...(it may be there would be some info about the sword - see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/search...earchid=190791 - which is still a small mystery to me) Regards, Martin

18th October 2011, 12:40 AM	#4
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 845	Sorry for the wrong link (I was trying to find old thread from the list) - correct should be http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12296

18th October 2011, 09:06 AM	#5
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,719	Hi Martin, unfortunately Briggs has nothing really about your sword, it is really only a detailed article about . If you want I can scan and send you a copy - I have the papers somewhere in my house and will try to find them for you! Mauro, I agree, it's very subjective topic and I would agree there are many connections also with takouba. The Sahel region was/is very interconnected and their trade routes extended into West Africa. The half moons and the triple fullers on these Toma and Mende swords are clearly taken I think from the takouba. For example I have also a Lobi ceremonial sword which is exactly in the same style as a takouba, so this style had a huge influence across this area of Africa. Wolf and Martin also have some interesting Mandara/Cameroon swords that seem related as well.

18th October 2011, 12:58 PM	#6
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 845	Thank you in advance Iain !

18th October 2011, 01:05 PM	#7
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,719	No problem, I forgot to write that article really only has detail about European trade blades. Almost nothing about native blades.