Evidence for fake Moro Kris / Keris Sundang?

Federico · 29th July 2005, 06:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

However, newer kris always seem to come with integral gangya or are there new examples with separate ones?

Regards,
Kai

I personally havent seen a newly "Moro" made kris with a separate gangya since the demarkation line of circa 1930s. By that point in time even collectors back then started noticing the trend, as can be evidenced in period writing regarding these weapons (Im thinking its either in Stones or Hutchings where the author makes the comment that lately the gangyas have not been separate but then its been a while since Ive done much reading on the subject). Now, the caveat of I have not seen recently made "Moro" kris with separate gangyas is that newly made Indo/Malay kris sundang do have separate gangyas still, and in the context of faking, if an unscrupulous seller decided to call it Moro in an attempt to pass it off as older, then there is that possibility. As for how to tell newly made or even old Indo/Malay kris sundang vs Moro kris, well that is a topic that we've debated often here to no clear agreement.

Bill · 29th July 2005, 04:46 PM

Haven't seen any blades that appear to be fakes, but as noted, there is a lot that have added fittings to increase the value. There has always been a lot of discussion on this forum on restoration v preservation. I think that when one has a exceptional piece, but in poor condition, it is better to preserve. If it is a 1900 kris missing its baca-baca & the hilt is missing the wrap, I see no reason not to restore it, as its original owners would, as long as it is done in the same manner that it was made. When the piece is upgraded, only to increase its value, I think the piece is ruined. I think many of us are likely to own Datu pieces without realizing it. There were many Datu, & for the most part thier swords were most likely very simular to the people they governed. I think a Datu could be compared to 1st level management in todays corporate world. They usually had little input to policy but were required to follow commands given to them; & still having to look out for the interest & demands of the people they led. When times were good, they prospered & could afford to commision an exceptional sword; but I think that would be less common then we imagine.

Rick · 29th July 2005, 05:12 PM

When will the first Chinese copy show up ?

Or could it be that a good Moro kris is too labor intensive to produce cheaply ?

I believe that Indo-Malay sundang are currently being made in Madura but these seem to make no pretensions of being Moro and they are always acid etched .

Battara · 30th July 2005, 12:57 PM

Well (being a deep subject and all

) there are some companies that have been making copies of Moro kris for a few years, ie. Kris Cutlery, Museum Replicas, India, etc. These companies state that these are repos and not the originals. As far as China is concerned.........

Rick · 30th July 2005, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Well (being a deep subject and all

) there are some companies that have been making copies of Moro kris for a few years, ie. Kris Cutlery, Museum Replicas, India, etc. These companies state that these are repos and not the originals. As far as China is concerned.........

Of course , I had forgotten KC and MRL , I haven't seen the 'India' examples ; can you provide a link ?

Battara · 30th July 2005, 08:47 PM

No, but a few years ago I saw one in a catalog. If I find it again, I'll let you know. I'm pretty sure it was made by Windless.

Lew · 31st July 2005, 02:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

No, but a few years ago I saw one in a catalog. If I find it again, I'll let you know. I'm pretty sure it was made by Windless.

Battara

I remember those kris one was straight the other with luks and they seemed quite nice for repros.

Lew

29th July 2005, 05:12 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,365	I Wonder When will the first Chinese copy show up ? Or could it be that a good Moro kris is too labor intensive to produce cheaply ? I believe that Indo-Malay sundang are currently being made in Madura but these seem to make no pretensions of being Moro and they are always acid etched .

29th July 2005, 04:46 PM	#2
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Haven't seen any blades that appear to be fakes, but as noted, there is a lot that have added fittings to increase the value. There has always been a lot of discussion on this forum on restoration v preservation. I think that when one has a exceptional piece, but in poor condition, it is better to preserve. If it is a 1900 kris missing its baca-baca & the hilt is missing the wrap, I see no reason not to restore it, as its original owners would, as long as it is done in the same manner that it was made. When the piece is upgraded, only to increase its value, I think the piece is ruined. I think many of us are likely to own Datu pieces without realizing it. There were many Datu, & for the most part thier swords were most likely very simular to the people they governed. I think a Datu could be compared to 1st level management in todays corporate world. They usually had little input to policy but were required to follow commands given to them; & still having to look out for the interest & demands of the people they led. When times were good, they prospered & could afford to commision an exceptional sword; but I think that would be less common then we imagine.

30th July 2005, 12:57 PM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,325	Well (being a deep subject and all ) there are some companies that have been making copies of Moro kris for a few years, ie. Kris Cutlery, Museum Replicas, India, etc. These companies state that these are repos and not the originals. As far as China is concerned.........

30th July 2005, 08:47 PM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,325	No, but a few years ago I saw one in a catalog. If I find it again, I'll let you know. I'm pretty sure it was made by Windless.