Sad story: 'Ottoman / Kurdish Jambiya' Did you buy it?

A.alnakkas · 10th August 2011, 03:22 PM

Awesome. I have taken screen prints of it. This way even if the topic is deleted, we get to have something atleast (now I need to know how to access the file which stores screenshots).

Can we contact ebay perhaps? I am not sure how that would help.. but if we show that this item is illegally taken from the Iraqi people they might help?

Atlantia · 10th August 2011, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Awesome. I have taken screen prints of it. This way even if the topic is deleted, we get to have something atleast (now I need to know how to access the file which stores screenshots).

Can we contact ebay perhaps? I am not sure how that would help.. but if we show that this item is illegally taken from the Iraqi people they might help?

I think that the situation as it stands is that the eBay-buyer is probobly completely unaware of the 'history' of this item, but that the seller is promising to include this paperwork in the sale (according to thier auction 'paperwork included').
I'm guessing that the buyer is a fairly serious collector as they saw this and snapped it up using the 'buy it now' rather than bidding.
Clearly they recognised it's quality and didn't want to risk losing it in a bidding war. I guess they will be in for a suprise when they see what this paperwork actually is, and hopefully will be willing to explore the implications of it and provide a copy for discussion here.

If the military is providing exemption paperwork for dubiously acquired antique items of cultural significance then this is something of huge interest, and needs to be discussed and explored.
If the paperwork is examined and a mistake has been made (perhaps even not understanding the value and importance of the item) then that would leave a different set of questions to answer.

I would be very interested to see the paperwork.
I want to know under what circumstances any military can justify this kind of trophy hunting in a modern 'war of liberation'?

A.alnakkas · 10th August 2011, 03:55 PM

Thanks for the input, Kronckew.

Can you see how this would help in the case of this particular Item? I am trying to read this and make sense of it, but lets just say that am very weak when it comes to that :-)

Gene, I really hope that the seller is part of this forum. The paperwork will really help. If the paper work doesnt show up, am sure there are other methods to find it.

Regards,

Lotfy

Atlantia · 10th August 2011, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Thanks for the input, Kronckew.

Can you see how this would help in the case of this particular Item? I am trying to read this and make sense of it, but lets just say that am very weak when it comes to that :-)

Gene, I really hope that the seller is part of this forum. The paperwork will really help. If the paper work doesnt show up, am sure there are other methods to find it.

Regards,

Lotfy

Absolutely, I'm sure we are all aware fo the long history of wartime bringbacks, but I'm sure we aren't the only ones a little 'suprised' that this ancient 'tradition' is being apparently condoned under these, shall we say 'unusual' circumstances in a modern conflict.

kronckew · 10th August 2011, 04:01 PM

i've added a comment to my earlier post.

summary: appears to be allowed if approved by the appropriate authority. paperwork & request to retain by the individual would have to be filed at the same time as it is turned in to the authority.

i would bet that if the item was of sufficient value and culturally significant, any such permission could be appealed in a US military or civilian court.

trophies, either actual battlefield or bought in local markets by remfs and lied about as such, i am sure are coming out of afghanistan as well.

Rick · 10th August 2011, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

I want to know under what circumstances any military can justify this kind of trophy hunting in a modern 'war of liberation'?

Danger, thin ice ahead .
No politics please .

TIA,

Rick

Atlantia · 10th August 2011, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Danger, thin ice ahead .
No politics please .

TIA,

Rick

Sorry Rick, treading carefully.
Is an eBay link OK?

Rick · 10th August 2011, 04:11 PM

Link/s ?
Yes .

Still, we are on a slippery slope; this is verging on OT and international politics .

We leave that stuff at the door when we enter, mate .
Get my drift ?

Rick

Atlantia · 10th August 2011, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Link/s ?
Yes .

Still, we are on a slippery slope; this is verging on OT and international politics .

We leave that stuff at the door when we enter, mate .
Get my drift ?

Rick

Absolutely. Message received and understood.
Editorial mode 'off'

Link to the auction:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Ottoman-Kurdish-...item3a690a030f

carlitobrigante · 10th August 2011, 06:32 PM

if the original story is true, then the seller may soon be put in an awkward situation of having to grass up his marine buddy as he will be traceable now through ebay if someone did manage to do something about it.

I could see how such items would be scattared about in a place like a Falluja after a battle like that.

We shouldnt assume either that this wasnt signed off officially by the US army as a legit war trophy. Considering the hardness of the fighting there and the casualties, a marine presenting what was likely an uncleaned dusty unimpressive looking dagger (in that condition, to the untrained eye) as a trophy to take home might not have met too much resistance from the persons responsible for signing off on it.

Although saying that, the fact its on ebay after the owner expressing that it most certainly was not for sale raises red flags.

Items like what this might be are the tip of the iceberg unfortunately as far as looting from that region in recent times goes. The looting of the Iraqi museums during the fall of Sadam still pains me to think about. I wonder whether any of it was recovered. Bet some made it to ebay.

kronckew · 10th August 2011, 04:12 PM

i also noted that the circumstances of acquisition form part of the paperwork when you turn in an item.

i would think that they would differentiate between looting from non-combatants or from a museum, and picking it up off someone who had just been actively engaged in trying to terminate the picker-upper.

as in everything, provenance and the paper trail are highly important.

10th August 2011, 03:22 PM	#1
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	Awesome. I have taken screen prints of it. This way even if the topic is deleted, we get to have something atleast (now I need to know how to access the file which stores screenshots). Can we contact ebay perhaps? I am not sure how that would help.. but if we show that this item is illegally taken from the Iraqi people they might help?

10th August 2011, 03:55 PM	#3
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	Thanks for the input, Kronckew. Can you see how this would help in the case of this particular Item? I am trying to read this and make sense of it, but lets just say that am very weak when it comes to that :-) Gene, I really hope that the seller is part of this forum. The paperwork will really help. If the paper work doesnt show up, am sure there are other methods to find it. Regards, Lotfy

10th August 2011, 04:01 PM	#5
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,239	i've added a comment to my earlier post. summary: appears to be allowed if approved by the appropriate authority. paperwork & request to retain by the individual would have to be filed at the same time as it is turned in to the authority. i would bet that if the item was of sufficient value and culturally significant, any such permission could be appealed in a US military or civilian court. trophies, either actual battlefield or bought in local markets by remfs and lied about as such, i am sure are coming out of afghanistan as well.

10th August 2011, 04:11 PM	#8
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,347	Link/s ? Yes . Still, we are on a slippery slope; this is verging on OT and international politics . We leave that stuff at the door when we enter, mate . Get my drift ? Rick

10th August 2011, 06:32 PM	#10
carlitobrigante Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Solihull, UK Posts: 81	if the original story is true, then the seller may soon be put in an awkward situation of having to grass up his marine buddy as he will be traceable now through ebay if someone did manage to do something about it. I could see how such items would be scattared about in a place like a Falluja after a battle like that. We shouldnt assume either that this wasnt signed off officially by the US army as a legit war trophy. Considering the hardness of the fighting there and the casualties, a marine presenting what was likely an uncleaned dusty unimpressive looking dagger (in that condition, to the untrained eye) as a trophy to take home might not have met too much resistance from the persons responsible for signing off on it. Although saying that, the fact its on ebay after the owner expressing that it most certainly was not for sale raises red flags. Items like what this might be are the tip of the iceberg unfortunately as far as looting from that region in recent times goes. The looting of the Iraqi museums during the fall of Sadam still pains me to think about. I wonder whether any of it was recovered. Bet some made it to ebay.

10th August 2011, 04:12 PM	#11
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,239	i also noted that the circumstances of acquisition form part of the paperwork when you turn in an item. i would think that they would differentiate between looting from non-combatants or from a museum, and picking it up off someone who had just been actively engaged in trying to terminate the picker-upper. as in everything, provenance and the paper trail are highly important.