What do the holes mean??

[VVV]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

[snip]
Lexicographers regard the word "kujang" as a regional variation of the word "kudi". In Sunda the kujang has acquired cultural connotations that the kudi does not have in Jawa.

From this we can understand that inclusion of the kujang in a discussion of an ancient form of the kudi is irrelevant, however, a discussion of the kujang should include discussion of the kudi, as the kujang descended from the kudi.

Since we are discussing the kudi, and not the kujang, we need to direct our attention to Javanese culture rather than Sundanese culture. [snip]

My comment above was on the Sundanese kujang, confirming DaveA's post. I read your post as if you and I were discussing the kujang, not the kudi. Another reason for this impression was probably this sentence of yours:

"Now, amongst the circle of people in Jawa with whom I associate, I have never heard these beliefs concerning kudi and kujang spoken."

But if your answers still mentally focused on the kudi and "Jawanese" culture, and the mentioning of kujang above should be neglected and you consider the inclusion of it as irrelevant to this thread, it does clear some of the confusion. So does the quoted second sentence above were you confirm my remark 1) in my earlier post.

However, even if your answer cleared some confusion it woke my curiosity on this hypothesis of yours:

"It is tempting to hypothesise that the three holes represent the Hindu trinity, however, even if there is an association, it more probable that the holes were created to receive something that represented the trinity."

Could you please develop this?

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes Michael I was focussed on the kudi, because that was where Mark's question was directed, I included mention of the kujang in what I wrote because Dave's informant had given the myth as including the kujang and kudi.

However, I'm glad that I have been able to clarify my position.

As to the three holes hypothesis, its a throw away idea. We can come up a multitude of "good ideas" when we start this sort of game, I threw in the Hindu trinity simply because it fits the scenario of three + Hindu Jawa. Three is a very important number in Hindu Javanese belief, because of the trinity, and important in present day Bali Hindu belief for the same reason. Many examples can be found. However, when we involve the three in a physical form it would be usual to involve a representation of their attributes, perhaps in the applicable colours.My attitude could be misdirected in this instance, but I personally find this sort of hypothesing pretty much a waste of time. The sort of thing you do with friends of like mind when the level in the bottle of muscat is getting near to the bottom. With only a minimal understanding of Old Javanese culture, and current Javanese culture, it is possible come up with all sorts of good ideas --- and that's all this sort of thing is:- a good idea. Without the evidence its not worth wasting time on, and currently we do not have the evidence.

In any case, the holes are not limited to three, David showed us four, which because of placement of the holes and the place of even and uneven numbers in Javanese numerological belief, I feel inclined to interpret as three + one. There are other examples of five or more holes. We can interpret in all sorts of ways and continue to do so until the cows come home.

[David]

Originally Posted by VVV

My comment above was on the Sundanese kujang, confirming DaveA's post. I read your post as if you and I were discussing the kujang, not the kudi.

Has Dave presented us with Sundanese kujangs or are these from Madura as suggested? Are all three of the weapons Dave presented best described as kujangs or would at least one of them be better described as a kudi? Would it be fair to base any hypothesis on the origin of certain features of a weapon upon a modern interpretation of that weapon or should we only be looking at kudis from the correct eras?
My sources roughly estimate the age of my kudi to be from about 1600. It has 4 holes.Whether we interpret that as 4 or 3+1 it still does not fit into the square little box of 3 or 5, Hindu or Islamic. Does anyone else out there have another old kudi that also doesn't fit the "box"?

[A. G. Maisey]

David, the blades that Dave has shown are fair enough representations of kudi and kujang, of course the arit-like blade does not belong, and possibly that one is not Madura, although the carving of the sheath looks pretty much like Sumenep work.I do not know of anywhere else in Indonesia that produces things that look like these other than Madura. The stuff that comes out of Bandung looks totally different.

There is a lot of variation in kudi, I haven't handled all that many kujang, but according to what is written on them, there is a lot of variation in kujang forms as well.But anyway, what we are looking at here can be taken as good representations of kudi and kujang. But that arity thing is more contemporary.

Regarding the holes, its as I said:- there are variations. I think Harsrinuksmo shows a drawing of a kudi with six holes. Yeah, sure, we could reasonably expect to see all odd numbers, but the simple fact of the matter is that we do not know what was going on with the holes. Before Mark drew my attention to the holes, I'd never much thought about them. There are many ways the numbers can be interpreted, and its no big trick to move in a different direction and interpret in ways other than the maculine identity.

One thing that Javanese culture does provide is multiple ways to interpret anything, but when there is nowhere to start no one way of interpretation can be more favoured than any other.

Hindu? Islamic? Indigenous? Who knows?

Religion? Magic? Numerology? Who knows?

The people who did actually know all died a few hundred years ago.

[Jean]

Just for reference, pictures of few kudi/kujang in my collection with 3 and 5 holes. I am not claiming that they date from the Pajajaran period....
Regards

[A. G. Maisey]

Here are a couple of archaics, both excavated, and both considerably more substantial than the talismanic ones we usually see.

[David]

Hey Jean, i love that last one with the head and the spiral at the base. I only count 4 holes on your second example, 3 eroded through and a 4th complete hole. Where do you count the 5th one?

[Jean]

Originally Posted by David

Hey Jean, i love that last one with the head and the spiral at the base. I only count 4 holes on your second example, 3 eroded through and a 4th complete hole. Where do you count the 5th one?

Hey David,
You are right, the second example has only 4 holes, only the "initiated" can see the fifth one, ! I also like the 3rd one with the naga head.
Regards