2 swords for ID please.

[katana]

Fluted handle sword ....broad single fuller terminating approx 5" before the point, sharpened false edge, sharp edge and spine has distal taper. Handle material is 'organic' , no 'burnt hair' smell from 'hot pin test' ...so not certain what it is ...seems quite hard though (either through age or the material itself)

Blade length following curve 81cms/ 32"
Blade width at forte 28mm / 1 1/16"
Spine max thickness 5mm / 1/5"


Kind Regards David

[fernando]

Oh, i like the one with the organic material handle and the rather curved blade

[katana]

Hi 'Nando ,
I do too....although the handle may have been fitted upside down....it handles OK as it is...but looks slightly odd but does follow the line of the pommel section.....the handle has a lenghways split in it and I believe was removed (without removing pommel nut) and refixed the wrong way round. As there is no movement I'm assuming someone has used aradite to stick it to the tang.
The sword is light and fast. Once identified ...I'll make a decision as to whether I repair/restore it.

Kind Regards David

[Jim McDougall]

David, these are both enticing sabers, and well worthy of being stabilized with conservative restoration (I always hate overcleaning....an old salt like me relates to patination)

I've been plowing through stuff here in the bookmobile but at the same time getting ready for another departure northward. In Wagner ("Cut and Thrust Weapons" Prague, 1967) I did find, as suspected, an Austrian parallel to the lionhead. On page 434, plate 64, this same basic style is seen on the sabre of a senior noncommissioned officer in the 'Prima Plana' infantry with the years 1776-1777.
In the case of the sabre illustrated in Wagner however, the hilt is in brass and has a knucklegard, and the quillon extends straight out (as on French military sabres). The ecusson/langet on the crossguard is this same rounded diamond shape, and is profiled.

While it is not a perfect match, it is the same lionhead form with capstan on pommel, the same langet form and similar grip type. This of course suggests the Continental provenance of the sabre and that your sabre is 'of the type' and probably produced in period or subsequently within reasonable time, but for other issue.
Is there evidence that a knuckleguard was present, as should be on these type hilts? The quillon is curiously pointed downward with no terminal, is it broken off? The metal is dull gray, can you tell what material?

As for the other sabre, still no match, but as previously noted, these type pommels are known to have been on French sabres which usually carried neoclassic themes in motif. The United States typically followed French fashions in military uniform and weaponry post-Revolutionary War but in larger degree at the opening of the 19th century (Federal Period).

In this sabre the pommel is of similar form to the officers swords later in the century, and the fluted grips also. French sword grips often had vertical fluting but ebony was much more common. The interesting vertically sectioned langet seems to suggest U.S. as well as the notably parabolically curved blade. These strong curves were much favored on some of the earlier U.S. sabres, particularly those made by the Virginia Manufactory. Many of these early sabres were incredibly long with dramatic curve, and most were shortened down by Confederate officers during the 'War Between the States' (Civil War) as I was told vehemently to call it when I lived in Nashville!
There is nothing comparable in "The American Sword" (H.L.Peterson) but I just noticed Fernando's astute comment....the material in the grip does indeed appear 'organic' and when cleaned...ebony? If so, this is French I would think.

As always.....more research to be done


All the best,
Jim

[katana]

Hi Jim ,
thank you for the 'book bashing' and the info greatly appreciated...

The "lion headed" is certainly missing its knucklebow ....the end of which would have 'terminated' in the lion's mouth. The opposite quillion is indeed broken and appears to be slightly bent forward ...how or why I don't know ...but am certain it was originally straight. The remaining 'crossguard', pommel and backstrap are heavily oxidised brass. So it certainly fits your description of the Austrian Infantry Sabre

As to the other sword.....further examination confirms a very hard, dry, close grained wood with some age (under magnification it almost looks 'petrified' ...and I don't mean 'fearful' ) This sword also is missing the finial from the upper most quillion and the knucklebow ...which would have terminated in a hole at the 'base' of the pommel . Remaining 'crossguard' is steel and would assume that the knucklebow and finial would have been the same.
These 2 swords came from the same source ....and its very strange that both have almost the identical damage/lost parts. Whether, it was a previous owners whim to do this ( ) or was legitimate modification or damage I have no idea. The patina/oxidation on the fractured ends of the brass 'crossguard' is very old ....so the loss of the knucklebow/finial was some time ago....perhaps genuine 'battle damage'
The seller bought these from an antique dealer some 60 years ago.....they were 'paired' together when originally bought by the antique dealer....so they have been 'brothers' for some time. It would be extremely exciting to find out that these both may be 'bring backs" from the Napoleonic wars....Austerlitz..Waterloo ...and all that .......imagination and hope, the bane of being a collector
All the best
David

[Jim McDougall]

Hi David,
Absolutely my pleasure!!! Its fun looking into these and I hope they turn up to be as noted, Napoleonic provenance. Stuff this long together and left pretty much static all these years are pretty compelling circumstances.
Guess this will not be one of my long boring posts the one deleted was some weird glitch I havent seen before, but it posted your post which I quoted and my text disappeared.......maybe it was the UFO program on TV that was on.
First animal mutilations, then human abductions..now my posts!!!!

Lets keep looking, I know Ive seen that langet style somewhere!

All the best,
Jim

[katana]

Hi Jim,
UFO's you say.....not been 'hittin' a few single malts at the same time as the books, have we ?? ...

I've posted the sword on SFI ....it has been suggested that as the stirrup guard would have been steel, it would have been un-usual for a French sword. The langets were also questionable for a French sword. Suggested countries were Italy or even Britain. The Langet shape is a common 'British' shape ...but I have not found one with the 'striped' design.

Kind Regards David