Islamic Crossbow?

Jens Nordlunde · 25th July 2005, 10:50 AM

Elgood: Firearms of The Islamic World, page 115, you will see a miniature with at least two crossbows – dated c. 1500. Too late for you I guess.

Syed Zafar Haider: Islamic Arms and Armour of Muslim India, page 186. Two drawings of crossbows, one from Egypt 11th century, in Museum of Islamic Art, Cairo and one from a miniature shown in ‘Zafar Nama’ c. 1467. In the text about crossbows he writes:

Takhsh.
A rare example of a crossbow is illustrated in the late fifteenth century Persian manuscript Zafar Nama. Under the nomenclature takhsh it is further mentioned in the manuscript as a part of the arsenal used by the Muslim Indian armies fighting against Timur.

A drawing in ink from the eleventh century, Egypt proves the presence of this weapon with the Islamic armies much before it became popular in Europe. Ease and effectiveness with which the composite bow was used prevented the crossbow from gaining favour with the Islamic armies. It is for this reason that no example of such a weapon has reached us from the past.

The crossbow from Egypt is a multipurpose weapon, a spear and a crossbow. Maybe they have other crossbows at the museum, but anyway it shows, that they knew the crossbow very early.

Jens

B.I · 25th July 2005, 12:45 PM

thank you jens,
could you please post the two drawings from haiders book. i can try and trace the manuscript here and find the reference.
attached is a persian inlaid silver bottle from the 13thC, in the freer gallery of art.
this is a good start but much more is still needed and much appreciated, as ever.

Rivkin · 27th July 2005, 08:11 PM

My memory was almost entirely right (with an exception of that I interchanged "persian" and "turkish" bows).
"The Mamluks in Egyptian politics and society" edited by Thomas Philipp and Ulrich Haarmann has an article on p.174 "The late triumph of the Persian bow: critical voices on the Mamluk monopoly on weaponry". It deals mostly with the issue that while descendants of the prophet were banned from carrying weapons, sons of idolaters (mamluks) were the only ones permitted to do so. On p.184 it discusses the crossbows - they had two names "qaws ak zaytun, qaws al jarkh, qaws al-rijl" (not bunduq) and "turkish bow". Some of these bows where possibly some sort of siege machines rather than ordinary crossbows (I can't exactly envision a crossbow firing a 90kg bolt ?).

The nomenclature of bows comes from religious discussions of Ibn al-Qayyim (d.1350) and others on whether a muslim can use weapons of non-muslims (since the prophet himself in principle did not use the weapons of kafir). Crossbows where seen as an introduction made by mamluks from the lands of kafir.

It's a very interesting article, unfortunately (or fortunately) it mostly refers to original sources in arabic with an exception of works I already cited here.

fernando · 27th July 2005, 10:57 PM

You can read in the "Historia Silense " ( Perez de Urbel y Ruiz-Zorrilla - pages 189-190 ) , in the year 1028 , during the conquist of Coimbra by Fernando I, the relate of the punishment inflicted to a Moor, that has killed his father in law Afonso V, with a crossbow.
These type of texts are or come from writings of the period, and there is no misinterpretation of terminology. A bow is an "arco" ( arch ) and a crossbow is a "besta" ( beast ) or whatever subnames derived from the crossbow evolution and variations.
In the French National Library of Paris, there is ( at least ) an illumination of the great siege of Rhodes, in 1480, where you can clearly see the gear of both Otoman Turks and the Knights Hospitalers ( St. John of Jerusalem ), with the Turks using a consistent shape of crossbows ( one with a highly powerfull cranequin, a ratchet device that spanned a 450 ratio tension ).
Naturally all this showering of examples don't bring a label stating " Made in Islam ", but you are getting each time closer to something solid.

B.I · 28th July 2005, 07:27 PM

hi all,
sorry for going absent on my own post. i seem to have walked back into some great, and very useful contributions.
jim, as you say i always thought that the greatest link would be from spain, but in my ignorance, i had not thought of portugal. i have access to saracen archery, but although i havent had a chance to access it, from previous viewings i didnt think it would yield any confirmed answers. i was looking into other things at the time so i hope i am wrong.
agtai, what you are doing is what all academics have to do. as the published accounts have produced all that they can, it is time to backtrack back into the original translations, and try and steer research past the set stumbling blocks. this has been happening for some time on the well accepted manuscripts in the hope that a re-translation may offer a different perspective. i am pleased to hear that you tackle this in the same way. i truly look forward to new finds.
krill, thanks for confirming your reference. i got the feeling this involved unpacking material and i really appreciate the effort. i will access the book and see if i can track down his references. i can get these translated, or at least read to see if they can offer any more information.
marc, your contributions have been great. you mention Cantigas de Alfonso X with illustrations. i have found this book on a few sites, but can you confirm an author. as the title is in spanish, the booksellers tend to be spanish and i would hate to buy the wrong book. i will try and send some examples for you to choose which is the correct version.
fernando, your image is wonderful. many thanks! the illustration you say is an illumination of the great siege of Rhodes, in 1480. can you confrim a date for this image? this is important and it would have to have been painted within that period. also, can you tell the the book it came from.
i really do appreciate all the help, and hope that more references will be found in time, and posted here.

Rivkin · 28th July 2005, 07:42 PM

B.I.: you are welcome, no problem. I've finished Burke "History of Archery" and "Turkish Archery" by Klopsteg and I have to say their opinion on what is crossbow and what is not is entirely different. Only turkish bow where the stirrup mechanism is explicitly mentioned is certianly a crossbow (such things indeed appear in the mentioned article in "Mamluks in Egyptian ..."). The rest of the bows seem to regular bows, and "foot bows", which the article takes to be crossbows, is just the way these bows where used - two legs holding the frame, two arms used to draw the string. My impression from Burke that qaws something is not related to the crossbow unless some special device used to draw the string is mentioned, so only some of them where actual crossbows.

fernando · 29th July 2005, 01:05 AM

It's allways a pleasure to be usefull, B.I
I found this illlumination by chance, in a book edited in portuguese, about piracy and corso.
I later found that it is included in the written account of Guillaume Caoursin, titled " Descriptio Obsidionis Rhodiae urbis " ( circa 1490 ), an eye witness of the events, actually the vice-chancelier of the Knights siege defenders at Rhodes. It is kept at the Bibliotheque National in Paris, MS lat.6067, f. 55v.
But coming to Turk crossbow version, you can also track, before these Ottomans in the Rhodes episode, already their antecessors, the Seljuks ( XI-XIII century ), having crossbowmen in their armies.
Keep Well

B.I · 25th July 2005, 12:53 PM

jens,
the image from firearms of the islamic world is great. although later, it clearly shows the crossbow being used at a developed stage, by someone that could only have been persian. it definately helps.
this shows that it was definately used and is a good introduction to begin the process of successive and comparative investigation.

Jens Nordlunde · 25th July 2005, 01:56 PM

The one to the left is the one from 11th century; the other one is from 15th century. Sorry for the bad pictures but they are placed very close to the spine.
To compensate for the bad quality, I also attach an Italian Walnut Stone Bow, early 17th century - although it is very late for your use.

Jens

Aqtai · 13th October 2005, 10:12 PM

I got David Nicolle's "Acre 1291" last week, I was flicking through it today, when I found this:

According to the caption it is a "Mamluk enamelled glass flask" in the British Museum.

The same book also had this picture:
http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/607...anjaniq8be.jpg

fernando · 14th October 2005, 12:00 AM

So there is a modern publication on The great siege of rhodes ... certainly with that illumination with the Turks using crossbows..

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/...roduct-details

B.I · 15th October 2005, 11:15 AM

i continue to be both impressed and staggered by the information uncovered on this post. none of the sources referenced are common, nor easily accessed and it shows the seriousness of the forum members.

fernando -
thank you for expanding your information. the reason i had let the post 'die out' is because we had uncovered a fair amount of information, and i was waiting for the researcher to come back from france to hand it over to him. he is very happy with the information, but jist needs 'back-up' if he is to use any of it. could be please tell me the source of your mention of the seljuks having crossbows, before the ottoman illustration.
thanks for the book link, and i will order a copy and hand it over (with an invoice!). the article marc found also referenced the crossbow with a number of spanish terms - the foot bow, the foreign bow and the complicated bow. the 'beast' is a good thing to look out for when i am picking through foreign texts to see what i am going to give in for translation.

aqtai -
this research was already started by someone, and he had found the british museum bowl and inserted it in his file. (i wasnt aware of this when i first started the post). still, a great find though and much appreciated.
also, the illumination you linked from david nicholles book is useful, even though its a seige engine. the concept is still similar and maybe this can be used in this manner. thanks.

marc -
as fernando said, a wealth of fabulous information.
i will track down the BL books next time i am there (including the french article you mentioned). it isnt easy getting things copied there, and i hope i can get the information i need without having to type it out myself (not an option - i am slow in english....but spanish!!!)
the kings chronicle in pdf is a great find and i will print it out and hand it in.
the article from the madrid university is fabulous (i think) and i have handed it in for translation. just picking out bits, it seems there is much direct information and i look forward to recieving it back in english. do you know the author?
i can easily get hold of a copy of nicholles book, as its on most of the arms libraries i use and i will chase it up. i have had some time off (playing of course) and so it will be a week or so before i can take more time off to pursue the information in places other than my computer, but i look forward to showing anything new here.
i look forward to the information you are sending (especially the frescoes - even in poor quality), when you have time. believe me, i understand how hard it is to fit in any extra research as i struggle myself.

agian, much appreciated to all.

fernando · 15th October 2005, 09:22 PM

Just look what i came across with:

http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian...ambra_ma25.htm

http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian...ambra_ma26.htm

It's a pitty, there's something wrong with the attachment uploader ... these pictures are great.

fernando · 17th October 2005, 09:54 AM

There you are

Aqtai · 17th October 2005, 11:57 AM

Nice pics Fernando.

The arabesque decoration is a bit "neutral" though, i.e. it doesn't look specifically Islamic. Do you have any more info about this fine weapon?

25th July 2005, 12:45 PM	#2
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	thank you jens, could you please post the two drawings from haiders book. i can try and trace the manuscript here and find the reference. attached is a persian inlaid silver bottle from the 13thC, in the freer gallery of art. this is a good start but much more is still needed and much appreciated, as ever. Attached Images

27th July 2005, 10:57 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	You can read in the "Historia Silense " ( Perez de Urbel y Ruiz-Zorrilla - pages 189-190 ) , in the year 1028 , during the conquist of Coimbra by Fernando I, the relate of the punishment inflicted to a Moor, that has killed his father in law Afonso V, with a crossbow. These type of texts are or come from writings of the period, and there is no misinterpretation of terminology. A bow is an "arco" ( arch ) and a crossbow is a "besta" ( beast ) or whatever subnames derived from the crossbow evolution and variations. In the French National Library of Paris, there is ( at least ) an illumination of the great siege of Rhodes, in 1480, where you can clearly see the gear of both Otoman Turks and the Knights Hospitalers ( St. John of Jerusalem ), with the Turks using a consistent shape of crossbows ( one with a highly powerfull cranequin, a ratchet device that spanned a 450 ratio tension ). Naturally all this showering of examples don't bring a label stating " Made in Islam ", but you are getting each time closer to something solid. Attached Images

25th July 2005, 01:56 PM	#9
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	The one to the left is the one from 11th century; the other one is from 15th century. Sorry for the bad pictures but they are placed very close to the spine. To compensate for the bad quality, I also attach an Italian Walnut Stone Bow, early 17th century - although it is very late for your use. Jens Attached Images

15th October 2005, 11:15 AM	#12
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	OUTSTANDING! i continue to be both impressed and staggered by the information uncovered on this post. none of the sources referenced are common, nor easily accessed and it shows the seriousness of the forum members. fernando - thank you for expanding your information. the reason i had let the post 'die out' is because we had uncovered a fair amount of information, and i was waiting for the researcher to come back from france to hand it over to him. he is very happy with the information, but jist needs 'back-up' if he is to use any of it. could be please tell me the source of your mention of the seljuks having crossbows, before the ottoman illustration. thanks for the book link, and i will order a copy and hand it over (with an invoice!). the article marc found also referenced the crossbow with a number of spanish terms - the foot bow, the foreign bow and the complicated bow. the 'beast' is a good thing to look out for when i am picking through foreign texts to see what i am going to give in for translation. aqtai - this research was already started by someone, and he had found the british museum bowl and inserted it in his file. (i wasnt aware of this when i first started the post). still, a great find though and much appreciated. also, the illumination you linked from david nicholles book is useful, even though its a seige engine. the concept is still similar and maybe this can be used in this manner. thanks. marc - as fernando said, a wealth of fabulous information. i will track down the BL books next time i am there (including the french article you mentioned). it isnt easy getting things copied there, and i hope i can get the information i need without having to type it out myself (not an option - i am slow in english....but spanish!!!) the kings chronicle in pdf is a great find and i will print it out and hand it in. the article from the madrid university is fabulous (i think) and i have handed it in for translation. just picking out bits, it seems there is much direct information and i look forward to recieving it back in english. do you know the author? i can easily get hold of a copy of nicholles book, as its on most of the arms libraries i use and i will chase it up. i have had some time off (playing of course) and so it will be a week or so before i can take more time off to pursue the information in places other than my computer, but i look forward to showing anything new here. i look forward to the information you are sending (especially the frescoes - even in poor quality), when you have time. believe me, i understand how hard it is to fit in any extra research as i struggle myself. agian, much appreciated to all.

17th October 2005, 09:54 AM	#14
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	There you are Attached Images

25th July 2005, 10:50 AM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Elgood: Firearms of The Islamic World, page 115, you will see a miniature with at least two crossbows – dated c. 1500. Too late for you I guess. Syed Zafar Haider: Islamic Arms and Armour of Muslim India, page 186. Two drawings of crossbows, one from Egypt 11th century, in Museum of Islamic Art, Cairo and one from a miniature shown in ‘Zafar Nama’ c. 1467. In the text about crossbows he writes: Takhsh. A rare example of a crossbow is illustrated in the late fifteenth century Persian manuscript Zafar Nama. Under the nomenclature takhsh it is further mentioned in the manuscript as a part of the arsenal used by the Muslim Indian armies fighting against Timur. A drawing in ink from the eleventh century, Egypt proves the presence of this weapon with the Islamic armies much before it became popular in Europe. Ease and effectiveness with which the composite bow was used prevented the crossbow from gaining favour with the Islamic armies. It is for this reason that no example of such a weapon has reached us from the past. The crossbow from Egypt is a multipurpose weapon, a spear and a crossbow. Maybe they have other crossbows at the museum, but anyway it shows, that they knew the crossbow very early. Jens

27th July 2005, 08:11 PM	#3
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	My memory was almost entirely right (with an exception of that I interchanged "persian" and "turkish" bows). "The Mamluks in Egyptian politics and society" edited by Thomas Philipp and Ulrich Haarmann has an article on p.174 "The late triumph of the Persian bow: critical voices on the Mamluk monopoly on weaponry". It deals mostly with the issue that while descendants of the prophet were banned from carrying weapons, sons of idolaters (mamluks) were the only ones permitted to do so. On p.184 it discusses the crossbows - they had two names "qaws ak zaytun, qaws al jarkh, qaws al-rijl" (not bunduq) and "turkish bow". Some of these bows where possibly some sort of siege machines rather than ordinary crossbows (I can't exactly envision a crossbow firing a 90kg bolt ?). The nomenclature of bows comes from religious discussions of Ibn al-Qayyim (d.1350) and others on whether a muslim can use weapons of non-muslims (since the prophet himself in principle did not use the weapons of kafir). Crossbows where seen as an introduction made by mamluks from the lands of kafir. It's a very interesting article, unfortunately (or fortunately) it mostly refers to original sources in arabic with an exception of works I already cited here.

28th July 2005, 07:27 PM	#5
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi all, sorry for going absent on my own post. i seem to have walked back into some great, and very useful contributions. jim, as you say i always thought that the greatest link would be from spain, but in my ignorance, i had not thought of portugal. i have access to saracen archery, but although i havent had a chance to access it, from previous viewings i didnt think it would yield any confirmed answers. i was looking into other things at the time so i hope i am wrong. agtai, what you are doing is what all academics have to do. as the published accounts have produced all that they can, it is time to backtrack back into the original translations, and try and steer research past the set stumbling blocks. this has been happening for some time on the well accepted manuscripts in the hope that a re-translation may offer a different perspective. i am pleased to hear that you tackle this in the same way. i truly look forward to new finds. krill, thanks for confirming your reference. i got the feeling this involved unpacking material and i really appreciate the effort. i will access the book and see if i can track down his references. i can get these translated, or at least read to see if they can offer any more information. marc, your contributions have been great. you mention Cantigas de Alfonso X with illustrations. i have found this book on a few sites, but can you confirm an author. as the title is in spanish, the booksellers tend to be spanish and i would hate to buy the wrong book. i will try and send some examples for you to choose which is the correct version. fernando, your image is wonderful. many thanks! the illustration you say is an illumination of the great siege of Rhodes, in 1480. can you confrim a date for this image? this is important and it would have to have been painted within that period. also, can you tell the the book it came from. i really do appreciate all the help, and hope that more references will be found in time, and posted here.

28th July 2005, 07:42 PM	#6
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	B.I.: you are welcome, no problem. I've finished Burke "History of Archery" and "Turkish Archery" by Klopsteg and I have to say their opinion on what is crossbow and what is not is entirely different. Only turkish bow where the stirrup mechanism is explicitly mentioned is certianly a crossbow (such things indeed appear in the mentioned article in "Mamluks in Egyptian ..."). The rest of the bows seem to regular bows, and "foot bows", which the article takes to be crossbows, is just the way these bows where used - two legs holding the frame, two arms used to draw the string. My impression from Burke that qaws something is not related to the crossbow unless some special device used to draw the string is mentioned, so only some of them where actual crossbows.

29th July 2005, 01:05 AM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	It's allways a pleasure to be usefull, B.I I found this illlumination by chance, in a book edited in portuguese, about piracy and corso. I later found that it is included in the written account of Guillaume Caoursin, titled " Descriptio Obsidionis Rhodiae urbis " ( circa 1490 ), an eye witness of the events, actually the vice-chancelier of the Knights siege defenders at Rhodes. It is kept at the Bibliotheque National in Paris, MS lat.6067, f. 55v. But coming to Turk crossbow version, you can also track, before these Ottomans in the Rhodes episode, already their antecessors, the Seljuks ( XI-XIII century ), having crossbowmen in their armies. Keep Well

25th July 2005, 12:53 PM	#8
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	jens, the image from firearms of the islamic world is great. although later, it clearly shows the crossbow being used at a developed stage, by someone that could only have been persian. it definately helps. this shows that it was definately used and is a good introduction to begin the process of successive and comparative investigation.

13th October 2005, 10:12 PM	#10
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	I got David Nicolle's "Acre 1291" last week, I was flicking through it today, when I found this: According to the caption it is a "Mamluk enamelled glass flask" in the British Museum. The same book also had this picture: http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/607...anjaniq8be.jpg

14th October 2005, 12:00 AM	#11
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	So there is a modern publication on The great siege of rhodes ... certainly with that illumination with the Turks using crossbows.. http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/...roduct-details

15th October 2005, 09:22 PM	#13
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Just look what i came across with: http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian...ambra_ma25.htm http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian...ambra_ma26.htm It's a pitty, there's something wrong with the attachment uploader ... these pictures are great.

17th October 2005, 11:57 AM	#15
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	Nice pics Fernando. The arabesque decoration is a bit "neutral" though, i.e. it doesn't look specifically Islamic. Do you have any more info about this fine weapon?