Oman, Morocco or Zanzibar?

Dom · 30th July 2011, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurt

Who can say more about it?

as per
"George Cameron Stone"
"a glossary of the Construction, Decoration and Use of ARMS AND ARMOR in all countries and all times"

Arab.
Grooved blade 21 inches long.
Hilt covered with tortoise shell and inlaid with pearl,
engraved silver mounts and brass guard

Kurt, in case of, your hilt and guard did looks as well the above description
the general shape of your sword is the same, isn't it ?

and to complete the picture ... if I might said so

the last pic, is issued from a book in French
"ARMES ET ARMURES
armes traditionnelles de l'Inde
by; E. Jaiwant Paul

comments attached to this pic;
- poignée d'épée sertie de pierres précieuses, Rajasthan
(sword hilt set with precious stones, Rajasthan)

very popular, this type of hilt
from Morroco, to Zanzibar, passing by Saudi, might be Indonesia, until India

really popular

à +

Dom

Kurt · 30th July 2011, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dom

as per
"George Cameron Stone"
"a glossary of the Construction, Decoration and Use of ARMS AND ARMOR in all countries and all times"

Arab.
Grooved blade 21 inches long.
Hilt covered with tortoise shell and inlaid with pearl,
engraved silver mounts and brass guard

Kurt, in case of, your hilt and guard did looks as well the above description
the general shape of your sword is the same, isn't it ?

and to complete the picture ... if I might said so

the last pic, is issued from a book in French
"ARMES ET ARMURES
armes traditionnelles de l'Inde
by; E. Jaiwant Paul

comments attached to this pic;
- poignée d'épée sertie de pierres précieuses, Rajasthan
(sword hilt set with precious stones, Rajasthan)

very popular, this type of hilt
from Morroco, to Zanzibar, passing by Saudi, might be Indonesia, until India

really popular

à +

Dom

Hi Dom ,

You're absolutely right, this was very common.
Regards
Kurt

tom hyle · 30th July 2011, 09:05 PM

Lovely!
The shortness of the quillon block and its lack of bowed-out sides suggest an Eastern (Swahili?) origin rather than Mooroccan. The squared shape of the quillon tips also suggests such origins. It lacks the annoe often seen on such pieces.
The way the groove runs out at the tip suggests it might have once been a longer blade.

Jim McDougall · 31st July 2011, 04:45 AM

Kurt, thank you for the response. Now that I have been able to 'hit the books' I can see in Elgood the illustration of the Omani sword which is typically associated with the interior regions, and the scabbard does have this interesting pattern motif embossed in the leather (p.17, 2.13).

These pronged pommel type hilts do seem widespread in use and from the 17th century (possibly earlier) and probably well through the 19th. In looking at various examples of these,one example ("Arts of the Muslim Knight", Furisiyya, Milan, 2008, p.77, #41) with the same type hilt, but single downturned quillons, is shown as having been captured at Battle of Oran (Algeria) in 1732). These are shown as 'cutlasses' and often found in naval context throughout the North African littoral. This same type hilt on a sword also pictured in Elgood ("Arms and Armour of Arabia" p.11, 2.2) is strikingly similar in profile, but subtle variations in decoration and blades. This may well be the one mentioned from Stone as well, as the 'tortoise shell' is mentioned in all representations.

It seems these were notably popular in Ottoman association (particularly in N.Africa) and examples of these in Ottoman context are known from as early as the 16th century. The influence of the hilt form seems to have diffused into the Deccan in India in the 17th century as hybrids of the peaked pommel or pronged, are seen with Ottoman type quillon terminals and Indian langet. The linear design of rosettes on the hilt faces similar to yours bring to mind that Hyderabad produced swords for export to Arabia, typically Hadhramaut in the 18th century. Many have these same type discs in motif.

Elgood notes these cutlass type swords with such pronged hilt profile are well known on Arab maritime routes. The coastal region in Oman, Muscat, is the trade power which also controlled areas beyond Zanzibar, which included parts of North Africa including Libya, Algeria and Tunisia in commerce. The Ottomans were driven out of Oman by Ahmed inb Said of Yemen in 1741.

All of this seems to show distinct links in Arab maritime provenance to this type of sword, and hilts of this form with profound traditional presence. The heritage of the style from North Africa, connections to Arabia through the Yemen, particularly Hadhramaut (and sword influences between Hyderabad and Deccan), and the Omani type leatherwork in scabbard with Arab type cord and fringed swag trappings present hybridization noted to be quite well known in these type swords.

As usual, just thinking out loud here, and that this cutlass may well be quite old and simply newer scabbard, and in ivory/gold for someone of importance in trade connected to Oman's networks. It seems the merchant class in Oman were quite status and fashion conscious, but they typically carried the cylindrical hilt kattara.
Obviously these ramblings dont present anything conclusive, but hopefully the elements noted will offer possibilities for consideration and maybe even some discussion

Extremely exciting piece there!

All best regards,
Jim

Kurt · 31st July 2011, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Kurt, thank you for the response. Now that I have been able to 'hit the books' I can see in Elgood the illustration of the Omani sword which is typically associated with the interior regions, and the scabbard does have this interesting pattern motif embossed in the leather (p.17, 2.13).

These pronged pommel type hilts do seem widespread in use and from the 17th century (possibly earlier) and probably well through the 19th. In looking at various examples of these,one example ("Arts of the Muslim Knight", Furisiyya, Milan, 2008, p.77, #41) with the same type hilt, but single downturned quillons, is shown as having been captured at Battle of Oran (Algeria) in 1732). These are shown as 'cutlasses' and often found in naval context throughout the North African littoral. This same type hilt on a sword also pictured in Elgood ("Arms and Armour of Arabia" p.11, 2.2) is strikingly similar in profile, but subtle variations in decoration and blades. This may well be the one mentioned from Stone as well, as the 'tortoise shell' is mentioned in all representations.

It seems these were notably popular in Ottoman association (particularly in N.Africa) and examples of these in Ottoman context are known from as early as the 16th century. The influence of the hilt form seems to have diffused into the Deccan in India in the 17th century as hybrids of the peaked pommel or pronged, are seen with Ottoman type quillon terminals and Indian langet. The linear design of rosettes on the hilt faces similar to yours bring to mind that Hyderabad produced swords for export to Arabia, typically Hadhramaut in the 18th century. Many have these same type discs in motif.

Elgood notes these cutlass type swords with such pronged hilt profile are well known on Arab maritime routes. The coastal region in Oman, Muscat, is the trade power which also controlled areas beyond Zanzibar, which included parts of North Africa including Libya, Algeria and Tunisia in commerce. The Ottomans were driven out of Oman by Ahmed inb Said of Yemen in 1741.

All of this seems to show distinct links in Arab maritime provenance to this type of sword, and hilts of this form with profound traditional presence. The heritage of the style from North Africa, connections to Arabia through the Yemen, particularly Hadhramaut (and sword influences between Hyderabad and Deccan), and the Omani type leatherwork in scabbard with Arab type cord and fringed swag trappings present hybridization noted to be quite well known in these type swords.

As usual, just thinking out loud here, and that this cutlass may well be quite old and simply newer scabbard, and in ivory/gold for someone of importance in trade connected to Oman's networks. It seems the merchant class in Oman were quite status and fashion conscious, but they typically carried the cylindrical hilt kattara.
Obviously these ramblings dont present anything conclusive, but hopefully the elements noted will offer possibilities for consideration and maybe even some discussion

Extremely exciting piece there!

All best regards,
Jim

Jim ,thank you for your detailed explanation!
Best Kurt

Gavin Nugent · 31st July 2011, 11:06 AM

I would like to offer these images of the same type of sabre.

Where once these swords were very rarely seen, the last 12 months alone has seen 4 that I know of on the market.

The suspension fitting on this example is similar to another seen and may also offer some insight to the origins.
All 4 examples I viewed had the single upper suspension mount only, 2 like this, 2 like Kurts.

I feel they could be from the Oman Persian Gulf regions.

Gav

Jim McDougall · 31st July 2011, 08:23 PM

Thank you Stu and Kurt!

Gav, outstanding example that really does give us better perspective! Obviously this example has been static for some time without any attention and seems later, perhaps late 18th, into 19th by the condition of materials perhaps even later. The faceted shape of the mounts seem to me to resemble Ottoman type shamshir mounts some of which were hallmarked silver c.1870s and believed from Egypt.

I found this exact hilt ,discs and all but unable to see blade in Buttin (1933,#1004) shown as Arab, 17th century. After lookingh into hilts of a number of examples this form seems to have eminated from Ottoman forms, the earliest example found so far end of 16th century (Murad III, 1574-95) in an article by David Alexander. In the Anthony North article "A Late 15th Century Italian Sword (1975) it appears this particular hilt style including quillon system was around even late 15th century on a number of thier swords. It had apparantly become favored by Ottomans and would appear to have well permeated Ottoman, thus Arab, trade routes and regions inland.

With this it seems a traditional hilt form of Arab/Ottoman style which diffused widely through trade and remained traditionally quite late

All best regards,
JIm

LPCA · 1st August 2011, 06:21 AM

Hi guys,

The word nimcha or nimsha suits perfectly in its size (from Arabic nim = half, thus a short sabre as a cutlas).

But it is not a Moroccan nimcha.

It is a sabre of used offshore on the Arabic dhows. Made in Zanzibar, dependence of Oman, for the Arabian Peninsula.

Usually, the saïfs of Zanzibar has a rounded off guarding protecting knocks sliding on the flat of the blade, but it is not a law.

Louis-Pierre

31st July 2011, 11:06 AM	#6
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	another I would like to offer these images of the same type of sabre. Where once these swords were very rarely seen, the last 12 months alone has seen 4 that I know of on the market. The suspension fitting on this example is similar to another seen and may also offer some insight to the origins. All 4 examples I viewed had the single upper suspension mount only, 2 like this, 2 like Kurts. I feel they could be from the Oman Persian Gulf regions. Gav Attached Images Last edited by freebooter; 31st July 2011 at 12:58 PM.

30th July 2011, 09:05 PM	#3
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Lovely! The shortness of the quillon block and its lack of bowed-out sides suggest an Eastern (Swahili?) origin rather than Mooroccan. The squared shape of the quillon tips also suggests such origins. It lacks the annoe often seen on such pieces. The way the groove runs out at the tip suggests it might have once been a longer blade.

31st July 2011, 04:45 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Kurt, thank you for the response. Now that I have been able to 'hit the books' I can see in Elgood the illustration of the Omani sword which is typically associated with the interior regions, and the scabbard does have this interesting pattern motif embossed in the leather (p.17, 2.13). These pronged pommel type hilts do seem widespread in use and from the 17th century (possibly earlier) and probably well through the 19th. In looking at various examples of these,one example ("Arts of the Muslim Knight", Furisiyya, Milan, 2008, p.77, #41) with the same type hilt, but single downturned quillons, is shown as having been captured at Battle of Oran (Algeria) in 1732). These are shown as 'cutlasses' and often found in naval context throughout the North African littoral. This same type hilt on a sword also pictured in Elgood ("Arms and Armour of Arabia" p.11, 2.2) is strikingly similar in profile, but subtle variations in decoration and blades. This may well be the one mentioned from Stone as well, as the 'tortoise shell' is mentioned in all representations. It seems these were notably popular in Ottoman association (particularly in N.Africa) and examples of these in Ottoman context are known from as early as the 16th century. The influence of the hilt form seems to have diffused into the Deccan in India in the 17th century as hybrids of the peaked pommel or pronged, are seen with Ottoman type quillon terminals and Indian langet. The linear design of rosettes on the hilt faces similar to yours bring to mind that Hyderabad produced swords for export to Arabia, typically Hadhramaut in the 18th century. Many have these same type discs in motif. Elgood notes these cutlass type swords with such pronged hilt profile are well known on Arab maritime routes. The coastal region in Oman, Muscat, is the trade power which also controlled areas beyond Zanzibar, which included parts of North Africa including Libya, Algeria and Tunisia in commerce. The Ottomans were driven out of Oman by Ahmed inb Said of Yemen in 1741. All of this seems to show distinct links in Arab maritime provenance to this type of sword, and hilts of this form with profound traditional presence. The heritage of the style from North Africa, connections to Arabia through the Yemen, particularly Hadhramaut (and sword influences between Hyderabad and Deccan), and the Omani type leatherwork in scabbard with Arab type cord and fringed swag trappings present hybridization noted to be quite well known in these type swords. As usual, just thinking out loud here, and that this cutlass may well be quite old and simply newer scabbard, and in ivory/gold for someone of importance in trade connected to Oman's networks. It seems the merchant class in Oman were quite status and fashion conscious, but they typically carried the cylindrical hilt kattara. Obviously these ramblings dont present anything conclusive, but hopefully the elements noted will offer possibilities for consideration and maybe even some discussion Extremely exciting piece there! All best regards, Jim

31st July 2011, 08:23 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Thank you Stu and Kurt! Gav, outstanding example that really does give us better perspective! Obviously this example has been static for some time without any attention and seems later, perhaps late 18th, into 19th by the condition of materials perhaps even later. The faceted shape of the mounts seem to me to resemble Ottoman type shamshir mounts some of which were hallmarked silver c.1870s and believed from Egypt. I found this exact hilt ,discs and all but unable to see blade in Buttin (1933,#1004) shown as Arab, 17th century. After lookingh into hilts of a number of examples this form seems to have eminated from Ottoman forms, the earliest example found so far end of 16th century (Murad III, 1574-95) in an article by David Alexander. In the Anthony North article "A Late 15th Century Italian Sword (1975) it appears this particular hilt style including quillon system was around even late 15th century on a number of thier swords. It had apparantly become favored by Ottomans and would appear to have well permeated Ottoman, thus Arab, trade routes and regions inland. With this it seems a traditional hilt form of Arab/Ottoman style which diffused widely through trade and remained traditionally quite late All best regards, JIm

1st August 2011, 06:21 AM	#8
LPCA Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Toulouse - FRANCE Posts: 83	Hi guys, The word nimcha or nimsha suits perfectly in its size (from Arabic nim = half, thus a short sabre as a cutlas). But it is not a Moroccan nimcha. It is a sabre of used offshore on the Arabic dhows. Made in Zanzibar, dependence of Oman, for the Arabian Peninsula. Usually, the saïfs of Zanzibar has a rounded off guarding protecting knocks sliding on the flat of the blade, but it is not a law. Louis-Pierre