Sawfish sword

fearn · 22nd July 2005, 06:39 PM

Hi Tim,

Perhaps. Here's what we know:

1) the bill belongs to "[a] large sawfish [that] is distributed through much of the Indo-West Pacific region. It is, like all other Pristids, disproportionately subject to continued capture in the net gear widely employed throughout its range... It [lives] in shallow inshore coastal waters, estuaries and possibly the lower reaches of rivers. " (from the IUCN redbook page cited above). Checking another web page , this fish can occur from the Red Sea to southern Japan. It occurs in the Torres Strait, but we certainly can't exclude quite a few other locations.

2) both of us think that the blade is around 100 years old, although I really don't know how fast sawfish bills age.

3) It has a carved hilt that could be European, could be Massim, could be whatever. I'm arguing specifically on that swelled grip, which to my thinking is more common in European (esp German) knives than on Massim clubs (don't forget that the Germans and Dutch were the original colonizers of New Guinea).

4) It's undecorated, aside from the tar/plant sap/lacquer/whatever on the hilt, and it doesn't have a wrist cord.

5) What I've been able to find out about the history of the Torres Islands suggests that, if we've got the age right, it probably wasn't made for indigenous warfare or ritual, since neither were going on in the Torres Islands 100 years ago.

It's certainly fun to argue about, but we need more evidence to settle this one way or the other.

Fearn

Tim Simmons · 22nd July 2005, 06:49 PM

I am happy to leave it at that. My main concern was the rather catch all know nothing really tag of " sailor made " one of the reasons ethnographic items in the past were largely considered junk and untill quite recently very cheap is the lack of real knowledge of the items and cultural context. I can not wait untill I find the next piece to do it again. I might get some work done now.

Thanks Fearn , Tim

VANDOO · 22nd July 2005, 07:22 PM

I WOULD NOT SAY THAT A PERSON WHO HAS SEEN ACTUAL SWORDS MADE FROM SWORDFISH BILLS THAT WERE PROVENANCED IN MUSEUM COLLECTIONS SOME HAVING SCRIMSHAW WORK ON THEM IS A KNOW NOTHING. I BELEAVE THERE WERE NATIVE MADE AND SAILOR MADE AND SEE NO PROBLEM THERE AND WOULD CERTIANLY NOT SAY SOMEONE WAS A KNOW NOTHING IF HE HELD ONE VIEW OR THE OTHER THIS A DISCUSSION OF ALL POSSIBILITYS NOT A DEBATE WHERE SOMEONE MUST LOSE.
THE ABORIGINALS USE A TYPE OF TREE GUM ON THE ENDS OF THEIR KNIVES AND SPEAR THROWERS OTHER SIMULAR GUMS ARE USED IN PNG AND ELSWHERE BY PRIMATIVE SOCIETYS. A HANDLE MADE FROM THE SAWFISH OR BILLFISH BILL IS STRONGER THAN ONE WITH A ARTIFICIALY ATTACHED HANDLE. IT WOULD ALSO BE MORE EASILY MADE USING STONE AGE TOOLS ,STONE, BONE, SHELLS, LOOK FOR PRIMATIVE TOOL MARKS WHERE IT IS WORKED AND HEAT UP A BIT OF THE TAR AND SEE IF IT SMELLS OF TAR OR SOMETHING ELSE. SAW MARKS OR TAR WOULD POINT TO A MORE RECENT ORIGIN, I HAVE SEEN A FEW SAWFISH SWORDS RECENTLY MADE IN THE MORE PRIMATIVE FASION IN AUSTRALIA IN THE 1980'S I HAVE A SMALL ONE BUT AM NOT SURE WHERE IT WAS MADE.

22nd July 2005, 06:49 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,925	I am happy to leave it at that. My main concern was the rather catch all know nothing really tag of " sailor made " one of the reasons ethnographic items in the past were largely considered junk and untill quite recently very cheap is the lack of real knowledge of the items and cultural context. I can not wait untill I find the next piece to do it again. I might get some work done now. Thanks Fearn , Tim Last edited by Tim Simmons; 22nd July 2005 at 08:24 PM. Reason: SPELLING!!!

22nd July 2005, 06:39 PM	#1
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Tim, Perhaps. Here's what we know: 1) the bill belongs to "[a] large sawfish [that] is distributed through much of the Indo-West Pacific region. It is, like all other Pristids, disproportionately subject to continued capture in the net gear widely employed throughout its range... It [lives] in shallow inshore coastal waters, estuaries and possibly the lower reaches of rivers. " (from the IUCN redbook page cited above). Checking another web page , this fish can occur from the Red Sea to southern Japan. It occurs in the Torres Strait, but we certainly can't exclude quite a few other locations. 2) both of us think that the blade is around 100 years old, although I really don't know how fast sawfish bills age. 3) It has a carved hilt that could be European, could be Massim, could be whatever. I'm arguing specifically on that swelled grip, which to my thinking is more common in European (esp German) knives than on Massim clubs (don't forget that the Germans and Dutch were the original colonizers of New Guinea). 4) It's undecorated, aside from the tar/plant sap/lacquer/whatever on the hilt, and it doesn't have a wrist cord. 5) What I've been able to find out about the history of the Torres Islands suggests that, if we've got the age right, it probably wasn't made for indigenous warfare or ritual, since neither were going on in the Torres Islands 100 years ago. It's certainly fun to argue about, but we need more evidence to settle this one way or the other. Fearn

22nd July 2005, 07:22 PM	#3
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I WOULD NOT SAY THAT A PERSON WHO HAS SEEN ACTUAL SWORDS MADE FROM SWORDFISH BILLS THAT WERE PROVENANCED IN MUSEUM COLLECTIONS SOME HAVING SCRIMSHAW WORK ON THEM IS A KNOW NOTHING. I BELEAVE THERE WERE NATIVE MADE AND SAILOR MADE AND SEE NO PROBLEM THERE AND WOULD CERTIANLY NOT SAY SOMEONE WAS A KNOW NOTHING IF HE HELD ONE VIEW OR THE OTHER THIS A DISCUSSION OF ALL POSSIBILITYS NOT A DEBATE WHERE SOMEONE MUST LOSE. THE ABORIGINALS USE A TYPE OF TREE GUM ON THE ENDS OF THEIR KNIVES AND SPEAR THROWERS OTHER SIMULAR GUMS ARE USED IN PNG AND ELSWHERE BY PRIMATIVE SOCIETYS. A HANDLE MADE FROM THE SAWFISH OR BILLFISH BILL IS STRONGER THAN ONE WITH A ARTIFICIALY ATTACHED HANDLE. IT WOULD ALSO BE MORE EASILY MADE USING STONE AGE TOOLS ,STONE, BONE, SHELLS, LOOK FOR PRIMATIVE TOOL MARKS WHERE IT IS WORKED AND HEAT UP A BIT OF THE TAR AND SEE IF IT SMELLS OF TAR OR SOMETHING ELSE. SAW MARKS OR TAR WOULD POINT TO A MORE RECENT ORIGIN, I HAVE SEEN A FEW SAWFISH SWORDS RECENTLY MADE IN THE MORE PRIMATIVE FASION IN AUSTRALIA IN THE 1980'S I HAVE A SMALL ONE BUT AM NOT SURE WHERE IT WAS MADE.