Talismanic symbols on moro kris blades gallery!

[VVV]

David, the only reason was to keep the thread more "clean" - like the mandau face gallery.
Anyway as a response to Mohd so far I have never seen a magic square on a moro kris. I doubt that there is one but I would very much like to be proven wrong on this, maybe in this thread?
The most common muslim symbol seems to be what Cato (p. 102) refers to as the Ring of Solomon (The square with looped corners).

Michael

[David]

Originally Posted by VVV

The most common muslim symbol seems to be what Cato (p. 102) refers to as the Ring of Solomon (The square with looped corners).

Well, i guess that's a magick square of sorts...
I don't think we will be all too successful stopping the commentary on posted images so i suggest we just let it come and sort it out as we go...

[kai]

I believe that almost anything related to weapons in their traditional cultural setting (especially personal sidearms like kris/keris) is bound to touch on talismanic functions, magick and local belief systems (which doesn't preclude any features from being also decorative elements and/or signifying status, too).

I agree that there may be features which are likely to be more for showing off than talismanic function (like junggayan pommels and other readily seen features). I'd be very cautious to declare any "hidden" features (like inlaid blades) to be merely decorative though, especially since a lot of the knowledge surrounding talismanic functions obviously has been kept secret and/or lost.

Regards,
Kai

[VVV]

Originally Posted by David

Well, i guess that's a magick square of sorts... ...

Ha, ha,
But seriously I took for granted that all of you were familiar with the concept of a "magic square", which is an academic term, and other square symbolism used in magic, like the Ring of Solomon. A better term would maybe be talismanic diagram, like Mohd suggested, because usually either the number or letter values in the square (or rectangle) gives the same sum in each column and row.

A very good reference work is the article Islamic and Indian Magic Squares by Schuyler Cammann. Part I was published in History of Religions Vol. 8, No. 3 (Feb, 1969) pp. 181 - 209 and Part II in History of Religions Vol. 8, No. 4 (May, 1969) pp. 271 - 299.

Michael

[Tatyana Dianova]

I am really sorry to introduce in this thread a non-Moro stuff, but after seeing the Kai's blade I simply cannot hold back The silver "crowns" are almost identical to the decoration on a West Anatolian yataghan I have (with twisted core, by the way...) Do somebody know what these "crowns" mean and how can they be so similar??? It should be some Islamic symbol...

[Maurice]

Thank you Michael for sharing these wonderfull krisses!
You've got some diversity of symbols there!

I wonder in what kind the symbols (crowns-liked) in Kai's kris is differing with the almost same symbols as the "stars" that Michael has on some krisses...

Tatyana also great reference to put your image of the yataghan. It indeed has comparisons with the symbols of Kai's piece, but than with a better "finish".

[Maurice]

In this thread I'd like to share images of this kris, which is from the collection Beijens, and is now in hands of the Bronbeek Museum in Arnhem.

[David]

Originally Posted by VVV

Ha, ha,
But seriously I took for granted that all of you were familiar with the concept of a "magic square", which is an academic term, and other square symbolism used in magic, like the Ring of Solomon. A better term would maybe be talismanic diagram, like Mohd suggested, because usually either the number or letter values in the square (or rectangle) gives the same sum in each column and row.

Michael, of course i am familiar with the concept of the magick square which is why a wrote "of sorts" and ended my comment with a wink....get it?

[VVV]

David,

Of course I understood that you were joking (= "Ha, ha, But seriously...") but it also made me aware that maybe not all forumites are familiar with this concept.
However I also think there might be a problem when you spell it "magick square". For me you then are not directly referring to this specific concept but doing a personal belief (maybe in a way a semi-religious?) statement were the concept of "magick" (vs. "non-Crowleyan etc." magic) is stressed more than what we are discussing.

Michael

[Spunjer]

here's another one. green blade and all

[Maurice]

Originally Posted by Spunjer

here's another one. green blade and all

That's a fine one Ron!
Very interesting signs! Do you happen been able to clearify any of them?

[David]

Originally Posted by VVV

David,

Of course I understood that you were joking (= "Ha, ha, But seriously...") but it also made me aware that maybe not all forumites are familiar with this concept.
However I also think there might be a problem when you spell it "magick square". For me you then are not directly referring to this specific concept but doing a personal belief (maybe in a way a semi-religious?) statement were the concept of "magick" (vs. "non-Crowleyan etc." magic) is stressed more than what we are discussing.

Michael

Sorry i didn't notice your comment earlier Michael, but a current thread sent me back here and i just noticed your response. To clear up your misconception, my use of the spelling "magick" is my way of distinguishing the commonly held idea of magic (hocus pocus stage magic and slight of hand) from it's more occult forms. Has nothing to do with Crowley. Sorry if this causes you confusion, but i will in all probability continue to use this spelling when discussing magick in this context.

[VVV]

David,

It was Aleister Crowley who defined (stipulated) the difference between the two kinds of magic (magic vs magick) you describe. I assumed in my comment that you were aware of this fact based on your interest in "magick". Obviously I was wrong on this. My comment that the term "magick" is semi religious of course presupposed that you were familiar with its background.

Michael

[Dom]

Originally Posted by VVV

The most common muslim symbol seems to be what Cato (p. 102) refers to as the Ring of Solomon (The square with looped corners).

Michael

Hi Michael
you're right if you are speaking about the Seal of Solomon,
but I dunno of any Islamic graphic evocation of the "ring of Solomon"

I've a collection of more than 50 "Islamic talismanic bowls" Sunnite as well as Shiite
at least I've a good understanding, for what is concerning Muslim symbols, used for magic
here a pics attached for one of my best example, with the Solomon Seal (17th C)

regards

à +

Dom

[Battara]

Is it me or do I not see a star or seal of Solomon on the blade?

[Dom]

Originally Posted by Battara

Is it me or do I not see a star or seal of Solomon on the blade?

there is no seal of Solomon, nor any sign of Islamic origin talismanic on this blade
you're right, I just brought my little knowledge about the talismanic symbols of Islamic origin,
to show what they were

à +

Dom

[dark379]

Hi I like to share my old moro keris which have Talismanic symbols....and i like also to consult this sword about its age, whether it is 19th or 20th century..... by the way about the cloth cover of the sword i think it was put later on, but the wooden scabbard is quit look old already and its handle..

[kai]

Originally Posted by dark379

Hi I like to share my old moro keris which have Talismanic symbols....and i like also to consult this sword about its age, whether it is 19th or 20th century..... by the way about the cloth cover of the sword i think it was put later on, but the wooden scabbard is quit look old already and its handle..

Sorry, overlooked your original posting. Welcome to the forum and thanks for sharing this nice kris!

While adding it to this talismanic gallery is certainly warranted, I believe it would also deserve to be discussed in a seperate thread of its own - please also add dimensions and confirm that the sampir/gangya is seperate!

IMHO this kris is definitely Moro craftmanship: blade probably Maguindanao including the nice danganan hilt; the grip braiding with the exposed silver strips is reminiscent of the upper Cota Bato region. I'd estimate it originates from the last quarter of the 19th century. The textile and bead work on the scabbard is obviously Lumad - a closer look may allow to identify the tribe and period; the wooden scabbard also looks Lumad to me. Alas, a Moro kris that received a Lumad scabbard after changing owners on Mindanao. Congrats, nice find!

Regards,
Kai

[xasterix]

Here's mine, relatively simple compared to the others on this thread. The blade is wide, but thin and flexible. The kris is very light.

[Dom]

sorry ... doubloon

à +
Dom

[Maurice]

Thanks all for getting this thread more interesting....I really going to like it more and more, though I have no knowledge whatsoever about the meanings of the symbols.

The circular shapes near the seperation line and on the gangya are very common it seems.
I see it on my blade, as well on Michael's blades and Ron's blade (however different) also.
About the meaning of all these I really don't know, but I can look for more comparison material.

I found a very interesting kris in the Tropenmuseum database, also with these circular forms above the seperation line. It seems that on the gangya it has some x'-s as on Ron's blade, but I can't see it very sharp on the image.

What I also see on most inlaid blades, is that the centre suggests to be of floral motifs, liniar lines, or some kind of waves, surrounded with stars, crowns, arrows...
On top of the floral motives you can find some kind of other symbols.
At my kris in the first post it consists of several "x" forms on the centre of the blade.
On the kris of the Tropenmuseum it is some kind of spherical symbol with an arrow pointing to the gangya, and above that two other talismanic representativs.

[Alam Shah]

Hi all, interesting thread..

Here's a book which might be useful, "Ukkil: Visual Arts of the Sulu Archipelago", by Ligaya Fernando-Amilbangsa. Chapters of interest.. Chapter I - Decorative Motifs and Symbols; Chapter VII - Blacksmithing and Casting; Chapter VIII - Goldsmithing and Silversmithing.

For more details, see here:
http://alamshah67.multiply.com/reviews/item/113

[Maurice]

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

Hi all, interesting thread..

Here's a book which might be useful, "Ukkil: Visual Arts of the Sulu Archipelago", by Ligaya Fernando-Amilbangsa. Chapters of interest.. Chapter I - Decorative Motifs and Symbols; Chapter VII - Blacksmithing and Casting; Chapter VIII - Goldsmithing and Silversmithing.

For more details, see here:
http://alamshah67.multiply.com/reviews/item/113

Thanks Alam Shah!

Do you have this book and can you find symbols in it which you find back on the images posted?

I've just had a quick look at ebay, and I found only one example for EUR 392,75

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by Maurice

Thanks Alam Shah!

I've just had a quick look at ebay, and I found only one example for EUR 392,75

You can get one at US143.95 here..
http://www.kabayancentral.com/book/a...mb5504809.html

[VVV]

Originally Posted by Dom

Hi Michael
you're right if you are speaking about the Seal of Solomon,
but I dunno of any Islamic graphic evocation of the "ring of Solomon"

I've a collection of more than 50 "Islamic talismanic bowls" Sunnite as well as Shiite
at least I've a good understanding, for what is concerning Muslim symbols, used for magic
here a pics attached for one of my best example, with the Solomon Seal (17th C)

regards

à +

Dom

Very nice collection of medicine, or poison, bowls, Dom!
I have mostly read about them when I studied Islamic Magic at the University but never seen as many as you have at once. Do you collect talismanic shirts, mirrors, locks and containers too? If so I would appreciate if you could mail me some pictures as references.
The reason why I wrote, "what Cato (p. 102) refers to as the Ring of Solomon (The square with looped corners)" is that I don't know where Cato got that name. I have not seen it in use outside his book.
The symbol, and its meaning as I described it above, is however well documented. My favorite reference for Islamic talismanic symbols is the classic Pagan Survivals in Mohammedan Civilisation (1933) by Edward Westermarck. Which one/s do you recommend?

Michael

[Dom]

Originally Posted by VVV

My favorite reference for Islamic talismanic symbols is the classic Pagan Survivals in Mohammedan Civilisation (1933) by Edward Westermarck. Which one/s do you recommend?

Hi Michael
which book/s could I recommend to you ...
I'm a self made man, and my training, it's the one of the street
anyway, thanks for the reference that you gave me,
I found this book in sale, and I will get it
PM in your in box,
otherwise we will be too much "out of subject", comparatively to "Ethnographic Weapons "

à +

Dom

[VVV]

Thanks Dom for your very interesting mail!
Another good reference book for those interested is the anthology Magic and Divination in Early Islam (2004), Emilie Savage-Smith (ed.).
The pentagram on Ron's kris is described as one of the seven magic signs in this book. It is also representing Solomon in Islamic symbolism, like on the Moroccan flag, but is much more rare for talismans than The Seal of Solomon that Dom referred to above.

Michael

[migueldiaz]

i believe this 'guy' has been in this forum before. was there a translation made earlier? if not, perhaps we can kindly request dom to do it for us? thanks in advance!

[migueldiaz]

the one above is now in 'antropologia' museum in madrid. this barung on the other hand is in museo naval, in madrid also ...

[Dom]

Originally Posted by migueldiaz

perhaps we can kindly request dom to do it for us?

as far as it's in Arabic language,
it's a pleasure ... but here, it's not the case

à +

Dom

ps/ I do not forget those who are on stand-by
need few time again ...