Early Royal Horse Artillery sword

Jim McDougall · 9th July 2011, 10:55 PM

Richard, in doing more research on this, I am noticing that the shield that appears with the arms of the Board of Ordnance was granted in 1806, and not officially granted until 1823. The period of use of these rather rare hilt style sabres seems to fall into the period suggested here, c.1790 with those used by officers of the 10th Light Dragoons (used until about 1804) and the only other unit Robson notes having these, the 30th Light Dragoons (1794-96).

I am wondering if the Board of Ordnance would have been using these armorial bearings as early as the 1793 date set for the origin of the first troops of Royal Horse Artillery. Perhaps as is often the case, the arms may have already been prescribed as seen pending official transaction.While it seems that it would be difficult to say which of these original RHA officers this might have belonged to, it does suggest that this sabre may well be an anomaly custom made for one of them reflecting one of these units.

After 1796 and the introduction of the new light cavalry sabres designated in that year, Robson notes that the troopers would carry these pattern sabres 'as needed'. Around 1806, the officers of the 10th Hussars were presented with a new design for thier sabres which superceded the earlier style hilt, and these were produced in small number c.1806-1810 I believe.

I had not realized how distinctly rare this pattern hilt was, and quite honestly have never heard it referred to as the 'coffin pattern'. Richard, can you specify the source or more on the term and more on the history of these hilts? Robson is notably vague on the pattern and whether these were the only units who received them etc.

Interestingly, the maker of this sword, John Knubley, was active as primarily a gunmaker but took over from Thomas Gill at 11 Charing Cross in 1786 where he remained active until 1792, then moving to 7 Charing Cross in 1792, where he continued until 1794. He died in 1795. In Robson, the sword with this hilt pattern to the 30th Light Dragoons has a blade by Thomas Gill. As I earlier noted, Thomas Gill's sword's seemed to reflect distinct German style features, and I wonder if perhaps he might have been somehow instrumental in the design of this type hilt.
Whatever the case, the sword must be dated of course c.1793-94.

All best regards,
Jim

Richard · 10th July 2011, 09:12 AM

Hey Jim! I don't want to give away too much about these "coffin hilts" (the name comes from the shape of the pommel cap) as they form a chapter in the new book (as indeed also does Mr Runkel - I have much new information from his descendant Mr Harmut Runkel). However, as you say, they all date from around 1790 to 1796 and generally fall into three categories:

Those carried by the 10th Light Dragoons
Other regimental examples
Unattributed examples

The 10th Light Dragoons examples start with the 16 no made by Foster and given by the POW to the 10th in 1792 - I have one of these and attach photo below. Thereafter, others marked to the 10th are known but differing in detail from the original 16.

Other regimental examples are known to 7th and 30th Light Dragoons and now to the RHA. There are also examples known to volunteer units including Leeds Light Dragoons and Warwick light dragoons.

Many unattributed examples also exist - photos of another of mine by Gill also below. There are also examples of naval coffin hilts.

Richard

Jim McDougall · 10th July 2011, 03:43 PM

Thank you so much Richard, and really excited about the book!!! Well understood about the term 'coffin hilt' and thank you for sharing an expanded view of the variations produced. These are amazing examples and I would really love to see your collection published in entirety . I'm really looking forward to more on the mysterious Mr. Runkle, who is a familiar fixture in the literature on British military swords, but only vaguely noted in reference without much detail on his role in the network of blade production.

All the best,
Jim

fernando · 10th July 2011, 03:50 PM

Magnificent sword indeed, Richard.

Richard · 10th July 2011, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Magnificent sword indeed, Richard.

Indeed and I am but a temporary guardian!

Richard · 10th July 2011, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thank you so much Richard, and really excited about the book!!! Well understood about the term 'coffin hilt' and thank you for sharing an expanded view of the variations produced. These are amazing examples and I would really love to see your collection published in entirety . I'm really looking forward to more on the mysterious Mr. Runkle, who is a familiar fixture in the literature on British military swords, but only vaguely noted in reference without much detail on his role in the network of blade production.

All the best,
Jim

Hi Jim

The big question about Runkel is that if he was simply an importer, who actually made the blades he imported. Well, we've answered that one for sure. It'll be in the book!

Richard

Hotspur · 11th July 2011, 03:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard

Hi Jim

The big question about Runkel is that if he was simply an importer, who actually made the blades he imported. Well, we've answered that one for sure. It'll be in the book!

Richard

I look forward to newer information. Mowbray, in his eaglehead pommel book pens several paragraphs for Runkel as simply an importer and broker of the supply. Like Birmingham, unraveling all the blade production owners/shops on the continent then supplying the cutlers may answer a lot of questions.

Cheers

GC

carlitobrigante · 10th August 2011, 07:11 PM

Wow.......sensational pieces of steel. Amazing swords and I hadnt seen the type before, many thanks for posting.

Ian Knight · 11th August 2011, 04:50 PM

Superb Richard. The quillon looks slightly strange. Has it been altered?

Ian

9th July 2011, 10:55 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,284	Richard, in doing more research on this, I am noticing that the shield that appears with the arms of the Board of Ordnance was granted in 1806, and not officially granted until 1823. The period of use of these rather rare hilt style sabres seems to fall into the period suggested here, c.1790 with those used by officers of the 10th Light Dragoons (used until about 1804) and the only other unit Robson notes having these, the 30th Light Dragoons (1794-96). I am wondering if the Board of Ordnance would have been using these armorial bearings as early as the 1793 date set for the origin of the first troops of Royal Horse Artillery. Perhaps as is often the case, the arms may have already been prescribed as seen pending official transaction.While it seems that it would be difficult to say which of these original RHA officers this might have belonged to, it does suggest that this sabre may well be an anomaly custom made for one of them reflecting one of these units. After 1796 and the introduction of the new light cavalry sabres designated in that year, Robson notes that the troopers would carry these pattern sabres 'as needed'. Around 1806, the officers of the 10th Hussars were presented with a new design for thier sabres which superceded the earlier style hilt, and these were produced in small number c.1806-1810 I believe. I had not realized how distinctly rare this pattern hilt was, and quite honestly have never heard it referred to as the 'coffin pattern'. Richard, can you specify the source or more on the term and more on the history of these hilts? Robson is notably vague on the pattern and whether these were the only units who received them etc. Interestingly, the maker of this sword, John Knubley, was active as primarily a gunmaker but took over from Thomas Gill at 11 Charing Cross in 1786 where he remained active until 1792, then moving to 7 Charing Cross in 1792, where he continued until 1794. He died in 1795. In Robson, the sword with this hilt pattern to the 30th Light Dragoons has a blade by Thomas Gill. As I earlier noted, Thomas Gill's sword's seemed to reflect distinct German style features, and I wonder if perhaps he might have been somehow instrumental in the design of this type hilt. Whatever the case, the sword must be dated of course c.1793-94. All best regards, Jim Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 9th July 2011 at 11:10 PM.

10th July 2011, 09:12 AM	#2
Richard Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Aquae Sulis, UK Posts: 46	Hey Jim! I don't want to give away too much about these "coffin hilts" (the name comes from the shape of the pommel cap) as they form a chapter in the new book (as indeed also does Mr Runkel - I have much new information from his descendant Mr Harmut Runkel). However, as you say, they all date from around 1790 to 1796 and generally fall into three categories: Those carried by the 10th Light Dragoons Other regimental examples Unattributed examples The 10th Light Dragoons examples start with the 16 no made by Foster and given by the POW to the 10th in 1792 - I have one of these and attach photo below. Thereafter, others marked to the 10th are known but differing in detail from the original 16. Other regimental examples are known to 7th and 30th Light Dragoons and now to the RHA. There are also examples known to volunteer units including Leeds Light Dragoons and Warwick light dragoons. Many unattributed examples also exist - photos of another of mine by Gill also below. There are also examples of naval coffin hilts. Richard Attached Images

10th July 2011, 03:43 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,284	Thank you so much Richard, and really excited about the book!!! Well understood about the term 'coffin hilt' and thank you for sharing an expanded view of the variations produced. These are amazing examples and I would really love to see your collection published in entirety . I'm really looking forward to more on the mysterious Mr. Runkle, who is a familiar fixture in the literature on British military swords, but only vaguely noted in reference without much detail on his role in the network of blade production. All the best, Jim

10th July 2011, 03:50 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Magnificent sword indeed, Richard.

10th August 2011, 07:11 PM	#8
carlitobrigante Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Solihull, UK Posts: 81	Wow.......sensational pieces of steel. Amazing swords and I hadnt seen the type before, many thanks for posting.

11th August 2011, 04:50 PM	#9
Ian Knight Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: East Sussex, England. Posts: 103	Superb Richard. The quillon looks slightly strange. Has it been altered? Ian