SCHIAVONA SWORD VARIATIONS.

VANDOO · 9th July 2011, 12:02 AM

GREAT INFO JIM AND HOTSPUR NOW I KNOW A LOT MORE ABOUT THESE BEAUTIES.

STONES GLOSSARY IS STILL THE BEST OVERALL REFRENCE OVER A WIDE RANGE BUT IS SOMETIMES INCORRECT AND SELDOM GOES IN DEPTH SO LEAVES A LOT TO LEARN BUT AT LEAST POINTS US IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION.
THE FEW EXAMPLES I HAVE SEEN AND HANDLED OVER THE YEARS WERE ALL DOUBBLE EDGED HEAVY BROADSWORDS. LOOKING AT THE PICTURES I POSTED I SEE THE SECOND ONE DOWN TO THE LEFT IS A SINGLE EDGED EXAMPLE. THE LAST EXAMPLE TO THE BOTTOM RIGHT HAS A LIGHTER FASTER BLADE BUT I CAN'T TELL IF IT IS SINGLE OR DOUBBLE EDGED.

Cathey · 9th July 2011, 04:56 AM

Hi

This Schiavona is the only one in our collection, and we particularly like it becaue of the pieced balde and armourers marks.

Nationality: Venetian
Over Length: 95 cm
Blade length: 80.5 cm
Blade widest point: 3.3 cm

Marks, etc.: The running wolf is the passau mark generally found on words supplied to mercenaries of the Arch-Duke Leopold V. The other makers mark is yet to be referenced, but is supposed to have something to do with St Mark?

Description: SCHIAVONA Venetian broad sword, the hilt with characteristic complicated multi bar basket guard. The outside elements of the “basket” splay out quite broadly at the ends, and each end finished with a well shaped knob. This form is repeated on the single rear quillon, while the lower bars of the guard spring from the ends of the atrophied branches. The upper elements of the basket are formed from a pair of narrow bars joining the upper part of the knuckle-guard to the inside of the rear quillon. These are set quite wide apart and are joined by a series of short curved bars at right angles incorporating thumb ring and rear facing quillon. Leather covered wooden grip. Brass Cats Head pommel with raised central boss on each side featuring what may have been a floral motif. Straight double-edged blade with pieced design, running wolf mark and another maker’s mark on the ricasso. Some pitting commiserate with age otherwise good condition.

References:
CURTIS, Tony, Lyle Price guide Militaria Arms and Armour Pp127
EVANGELISTA, Nick THE ENCYCLOPEDIA OF THE SWORD Pp529-530
OAKESHOTT, Ewart EUROPEAN WEAPONS AND ARMOUR Pp 182-191
STONE, George Cameron A GLOSSARY OF THE CONSTRUCTION, DECORATION & USE OF ARMS & ARMOUR Pp
WAGNER, Eduard, CUT AND THRUST WEAPONS Pp109,172
WILKINSON, Frederick SWORDS & DAGGERS Ward Lock & Co. Limited 1967 Pp

The best place to see a range of Shiavona’s on the market is Czernys Auction House Italy. They have two auctions a year and always appear to offer a good selection of these swords.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

Jim McDougall · 9th July 2011, 05:18 AM

You're welcome Barry, and thanks again for the posting which gave me an opportunity to revisit and try to make sense out of my heaps of old notes.
The Nathan Robinson article is excellent, and probably one of the most comprehensive studies written on these.
For anyone wishing to pursue further, some of the other references I have found among my notes are, in addition to Norman and Wagner:

"A Schiavona Rapier" , Claude Blair. JAAS, Vol.V, #12, Dec. 1967 pp.453-454

"Blankwaffen: Schiavona" Gerhard Seifert, 'Deutsches Waffenjournal', Vol.2 #12, Dec. 1966, pp.42-7

"In Search of the Schiavona", Karel Sutt, Knives 2000, 1999, Ed. K. Warner

"Historical Guide to Arms and Armour", Stephen Bull, 1991, p.125

"17th Century Europe" by Anthony North , 'Swords and Hilt Weapons', Barnes & Noble, ed. M.Coe, p.74

While Stone remains an outstanding, and amazing most venerable resource, there are numerous revisions which are attributed mostly to the subsequent research which he himself encouraged in his introduction.

All best regards,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 9th July 2011, 05:28 AM

Cathey and Rex, thank you so much for adding this wonderful and beautifully described example..we crossed posts and I just saw it!

Have you done any further research on the openwork devices in the blade?

Best regards,
Jim

M ELEY · 9th July 2011, 09:36 AM

Beautifully sculped hilts on these types. I've always wanted to have one to hang above the mantle. Very nice pics, Barry.

Jim, you out-did yourself with that dissertation. Wish I had half the knowledge as you, my friend! Not to get off-topic, but I remember the days of the Forum when this item would still be considered Ethnographic in a manner of speaking. After all, it's not like these were generic models issued from an armoury. Each one of these appears unique in their own form and is due the respect they deserve. My point is that it's too bad we've become so rigid that we can't discuss (on occasion) A Scottish baskethilt over on the Ethno forum or a Malay pirate sword here-

Back on topic with probably a really dumb question. If this form of sword served the Dalmations, is the supposition that they came from there, or were crafted in Venice for them?

fernando · 9th July 2011, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

... My point is that it's too bad we've become so rigid that we can't discuss (on occasion) A Scottish baskethilt over on the Ethno forum or a Malay pirate sword here-

I wouldn't put it the rigid degree, Mark my friend. But i would accept it to be sometimes tricky. A determined piece may be genetically ethnographic but also European.
Given that that the youngest Vickingsword descendant has by no means the same load of clientele as the Ethno section Jim, as one of the European section's co-authors, is naturally revealing his motherly feelings

, by pulling the coal to his sardine ... isn't that right Jim ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

... Back on topic with probably a really dumb question. If this form of sword served the Dalmations, is the supposition that they came from there, or were crafted in Venice for them?

Good question

Jim McDougall · 9th July 2011, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Beautifully sculped hilts on these types. I've always wanted to have one to hang above the mantle. Very nice pics, Barry.

Jim, you out-did yourself with that dissertation. Wish I had half the knowledge as you, my friend! Not to get off-topic, but I remember the days of the Forum when this item would still be considered Ethnographic in a manner of speaking. After all, it's not like these were generic models issued from an armoury. Each one of these appears unique in their own form and is due the respect they deserve. My point is that it's too bad we've become so rigid that we can't discuss (on occasion) A Scottish baskethilt over on the Ethno forum or a Malay pirate sword here-

Back on topic with probably a really dumb question. If this form of sword served the Dalmations, is the supposition that they came from there, or were crafted in Venice for them?

Thank you so much for those kind words Mark! Actually though, I wish I were as knowledgable as noted, its mostly just a lot of digging through references and simply relaying the knowledge of many outstanding arms authors. In the references I have gone through on this topic, the work done by Nathan Robinson (founder of MyArmoury forum) is beautifully done and he does an excellent job of catogorizing some the the many variations as well as a great synopsis of the history on the schiavona.
The reason I have tried to list as many reference sources as possible here is for the benefit of others wishing to continue research on these swords and presenting a benchmark bibliography for study. There are of course likely countless other references passim in the huge corpus of arms literature, and I hope others will respond in kind by adding them here as well.

It is indeed an excellent question you ask, and exactly the kind I always hope for in these discussions. The schiavona itself has become a distinctly recognizable style of hilt which has become most commonly associated with the forementioned bodyguards of the Doge of Venice. It is presumed that the earlier versions, such of some 300 swords in the armoury of the Doges palace in Venice listed in the 1548 inventory as 'spada schiavonesche' (Norman, p.65) were likely to have been with the more basic, undeveloped hilt style. Norman, p.101, notes "...by the third quarter of the 18th c. the basket hilt of the schiavona had been completed". In Blair (1967, op.cit. p.454) , he states that "...it seems probable that swords of this type were introduced to Italy from Hungary, perhaps Dalmatia, and they very likely to have been called 'Slavonic swords'.

Since Hungary is contiguous to the borders of Dalmatia and was under its control until the early 15th century, the influence of the war swords of Germany and into Hungary easily were transmitted via mercenary troops and constant interaction from trade and colonization to warfare into these regions.

Wagner (1967, p.173) notes, "...by the end of the 16th century sword baskets began more variety on form above all due to Italian influence. The sword of Dalmatian Slava acquired a deep basket made up of connecting bars and perforated plate . About the year 1580, this weapon due to trade with Brescia and Saravelle, won unusually wide popularity in other armies as well. The schiavona fitted with a longer blade was also introduced into the cavalry, and under Emperor Ferdinand II even among the cuirassiers".

In my opinion, while there were of course many North Italian swordmakers in Genoa, Milan, Lucca and others as well as Venice, there were many blades imported from Germany and Spain. The Brescians seem to have been among the greatest artisans for hilts, and these baskethilts are basically in greater regard in accord with the diagonal movement of swept hilt rapiers of these times. I would suspect that in large degree these more developed 'trellis type' hilts were Italian produced for the Dalmatian troops following the addition of these guards to the established simple war sword forms of the earlier type which had come from Dalmatian/Hungarian and German ancestry.

Naturally, this is suggested broadly as the developing hilts were appearing across Europe through the constant diffusion of influences and geopolitical flux. The amount of variation which understandably ensued allows only circumstancial assignment of a certain hilt form to a region or period by preponderance of distinctly provenanced examples.

Regarding the separation of forums, it really is not a matter of being 'rigid' as described, as there are many instances of European versions of ethnographic swords and vice versa. These I find personally fascinating as they reflect so much history from colonial and developmental views, but they are very much exceptions. The reason I encouraged the forming of the 'European Armoury' was to place distinctly 'other' than ethnographic type weapons in thier own context to limit the amount of 'explanatory' dialogue in reasoning thier presence in category and focus on constructive examination of the weapons themselves.

Nando, you are of course most astute!! and I do very much 'paternally'

and proudly want everybody to know about our 'European Armoury' .
One of the most common 'reasons' I hear from those who lurk for thier reluctance to participate is that they 'do not know enough about the topic'. For me, the goal is to learn, and for everybody to join in on the research, and then add thoughts, observations, questions and additional information.
A European weapon with no connection to anything the regular vistors are familiar with, placed in the wrong area will simply drop off into oblivion, which
happens too much as it is.

Thank you so much guys!! I hope we can keep this thread going and bring together a compehensive study to date on these swords.

All the best,
Jim

sioume · 5th July 2012, 10:14 PM

Hello,
I hope this thread is not too old to reply...
I am a very new french member on this forum . Hope my english will be ok.!!

I actually make some research on what I think to be an hungarian sword, an ancestor of the schioniva if I well understood the Nathan's article.
I dated from late 15th c. Wagner discribed a such one on his book plate 25.

I will need help to go further on my research.
What would be your advices on its provenance, datation,homogenity, genuine?
I will be very glad to read and learn about from much more specialists than me.

Many thanks
Alain

fernando · 6th July 2012, 01:38 PM

Bonjour Alain,
Welcome to the forum

.
Threads are never old in here.
Let us see what our knowledged members say about this interesting example

.

9th July 2011, 04:56 AM	#2
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	SCHIAVONA Circa 1600 late, (17th Century) Hi This Schiavona is the only one in our collection, and we particularly like it becaue of the pieced balde and armourers marks. Nationality: Venetian Over Length: 95 cm Blade length: 80.5 cm Blade widest point: 3.3 cm Marks, etc.: The running wolf is the passau mark generally found on words supplied to mercenaries of the Arch-Duke Leopold V. The other makers mark is yet to be referenced, but is supposed to have something to do with St Mark? Description: SCHIAVONA Venetian broad sword, the hilt with characteristic complicated multi bar basket guard. The outside elements of the “basket” splay out quite broadly at the ends, and each end finished with a well shaped knob. This form is repeated on the single rear quillon, while the lower bars of the guard spring from the ends of the atrophied branches. The upper elements of the basket are formed from a pair of narrow bars joining the upper part of the knuckle-guard to the inside of the rear quillon. These are set quite wide apart and are joined by a series of short curved bars at right angles incorporating thumb ring and rear facing quillon. Leather covered wooden grip. Brass Cats Head pommel with raised central boss on each side featuring what may have been a floral motif. Straight double-edged blade with pieced design, running wolf mark and another maker’s mark on the ricasso. Some pitting commiserate with age otherwise good condition. References: CURTIS, Tony, Lyle Price guide Militaria Arms and Armour Pp127 EVANGELISTA, Nick THE ENCYCLOPEDIA OF THE SWORD Pp529-530 OAKESHOTT, Ewart EUROPEAN WEAPONS AND ARMOUR Pp 182-191 STONE, George Cameron A GLOSSARY OF THE CONSTRUCTION, DECORATION & USE OF ARMS & ARMOUR Pp WAGNER, Eduard, CUT AND THRUST WEAPONS Pp109,172 WILKINSON, Frederick SWORDS & DAGGERS Ward Lock & Co. Limited 1967 Pp The best place to see a range of Shiavona’s on the market is Czernys Auction House Italy. They have two auctions a year and always appear to offer a good selection of these swords. Cheers Cathey and Rex Attached Images

5th July 2012, 10:14 PM	#8
sioume Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 12	Hello, I hope this thread is not too old to reply... I am a very new french member on this forum . Hope my english will be ok.!! I actually make some research on what I think to be an hungarian sword, an ancestor of the schioniva if I well understood the Nathan's article. I dated from late 15th c. Wagner discribed a such one on his book plate 25. I will need help to go further on my research. What would be your advices on its provenance, datation,homogenity, genuine? I will be very glad to read and learn about from much more specialists than me. Many thanks Alain Attached Images

9th July 2011, 12:02 AM	#1
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	GREAT INFO JIM AND HOTSPUR NOW I KNOW A LOT MORE ABOUT THESE BEAUTIES. STONES GLOSSARY IS STILL THE BEST OVERALL REFRENCE OVER A WIDE RANGE BUT IS SOMETIMES INCORRECT AND SELDOM GOES IN DEPTH SO LEAVES A LOT TO LEARN BUT AT LEAST POINTS US IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION. THE FEW EXAMPLES I HAVE SEEN AND HANDLED OVER THE YEARS WERE ALL DOUBBLE EDGED HEAVY BROADSWORDS. LOOKING AT THE PICTURES I POSTED I SEE THE SECOND ONE DOWN TO THE LEFT IS A SINGLE EDGED EXAMPLE. THE LAST EXAMPLE TO THE BOTTOM RIGHT HAS A LIGHTER FASTER BLADE BUT I CAN'T TELL IF IT IS SINGLE OR DOUBBLE EDGED.

9th July 2011, 05:18 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	You're welcome Barry, and thanks again for the posting which gave me an opportunity to revisit and try to make sense out of my heaps of old notes. The Nathan Robinson article is excellent, and probably one of the most comprehensive studies written on these. For anyone wishing to pursue further, some of the other references I have found among my notes are, in addition to Norman and Wagner: "A Schiavona Rapier" , Claude Blair. JAAS, Vol.V, #12, Dec. 1967 pp.453-454 "Blankwaffen: Schiavona" Gerhard Seifert, 'Deutsches Waffenjournal', Vol.2 #12, Dec. 1966, pp.42-7 "In Search of the Schiavona", Karel Sutt, Knives 2000, 1999, Ed. K. Warner "Historical Guide to Arms and Armour", Stephen Bull, 1991, p.125 "17th Century Europe" by Anthony North , 'Swords and Hilt Weapons', Barnes & Noble, ed. M.Coe, p.74 While Stone remains an outstanding, and amazing most venerable resource, there are numerous revisions which are attributed mostly to the subsequent research which he himself encouraged in his introduction. All best regards, Jim

9th July 2011, 05:28 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Cathey and Rex, thank you so much for adding this wonderful and beautifully described example..we crossed posts and I just saw it! Have you done any further research on the openwork devices in the blade? Best regards, Jim

9th July 2011, 09:36 AM	#5
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,159	Beautifully sculped hilts on these types. I've always wanted to have one to hang above the mantle. Very nice pics, Barry. Jim, you out-did yourself with that dissertation. Wish I had half the knowledge as you, my friend! Not to get off-topic, but I remember the days of the Forum when this item would still be considered Ethnographic in a manner of speaking. After all, it's not like these were generic models issued from an armoury. Each one of these appears unique in their own form and is due the respect they deserve. My point is that it's too bad we've become so rigid that we can't discuss (on occasion) A Scottish baskethilt over on the Ethno forum or a Malay pirate sword here- Back on topic with probably a really dumb question. If this form of sword served the Dalmations, is the supposition that they came from there, or were crafted in Venice for them?

6th July 2012, 01:38 PM	#9
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Bonjour Alain, Welcome to the forum . Threads are never old in here. Let us see what our knowledged members say about this interesting example .