BAT HILTS

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Royston

There has been trade between the Arab countries and S.E Asia for a long time.
Does anyone else see a similarity between Nimcha hilts and the bat hilts of the Philippines ?

My question is this:-

Influence or Coincidence ?

All opinions welcome

Regards
Roy

PS:- Now that we are sure that the Minisbad comes from Bichol, I note that this area appears to be predominately Catholic, but was there trade with the Arabs in the past ?

Salaams, Last question first .. Yes ! absolutely and as far back as the 8th century Oman was trading as far as China. The weapons look great. Clearly there is a link with the hilt style either with the Magreb or the similar hilt in and around the Zanzibar region (though I admit I have difficulty separating those two styles ) Interestingly Chinese vessels were running silk, spices and other goods up the Red Sea before the Portuguese arrived in the late 15th C. In fact, the Portuguese blockade of the Red Sea effectively bankrupted the Mamluke Empire shortly after. I see a European trade blade probably Caucasus 19th Century on at least one sword, The great question is regarding the hilts... Who influenced who? Also fascinating is which way around did the influence happen since the Philipines were for several centuries directly ruled by Mexico not by Spain/Portugal therefor it is conceivable that Magreb influence could have arrived in the Philipines via the Atlantic and Pacific or the shorter route if traded in by the Arabs or the other big three trade merchants The Portuguese, British or Dutch East Indies Companies (or all of them !)

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

[laEspadaAncha]

I had always thought the nimcha hilt portrayed a stylized horse. IMO it is important to maintain consideration for an independent evolution of form… When compared to the "business end" of an edged weapon (though itself quite diverse in appearance), the hilt is comparably wide open to artistic and stylistic interpretations and/or variations. Given the rich history of edged weaponry in many cultures, might it be possible two distinct peoples may have thad he similar idea of portraying a stylized version of two different animals in roughly the same fashion?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by laEspadaAncha

I had always thought the nimcha hilt portrayed a stylized horse. IMO it is important to maintain consideration for an independent evolution of form… When compared to the "business end" of an edged weapon (though itself quite diverse in appearance), the hilt is comparably wide open to artistic and stylistic interpretations and/or variations. Given the rich history of edged weaponry in many cultures, might it be possible two distinct peoples may have thad he similar idea of portraying a stylized version of two different animals in roughly the same fashion?

Salaams,
I would be the first to agree that parallel but unrelated form can accidentally occur in totally remote, unlinked, geographical groups but in this case these swords are virtually identical and there is good cause for a series of possible links. My suspicion is... The Zanzibari and Moroccan swords are directly linked to the Philippines sword by seatrade but I believe it isn't clearcut (excuse the pun) and I would like to know from where did this style of weapon originate?

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[ariel]

Gentlemen,
Quite some time ago I posted this sword:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=nimcha

Don't you think it might be pertinent to the current discussion?

[Rick]

I would guess this begs the question: how many other sword hilts found in the Philippines show possible Arab influence ?

If the answer is few I would lean toward parallel development .

This is a Nimcha Hilt; I see great differences between this and the Zanzibar hilt .

Here's a link to the original discussion of this sayf; let's throw that into our cooking pot .
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...enetian+nimcha

[ariel]

Well, the fact that only a few Phil. swords had "nimcha-like" handles does not constitute the evidence for parallel development. Just as likely, only few Phil swordmakers decided to imitate the foreign pattern. Only few Aceh swords have Gulabhati-like handles, but there is no doubt that the pattern was imitated from the Indian original, and not parallel-developed.
Mine has not only nimcha-like handle, but also nimcha -like quillons. The scabbard betrays the SE Asian manufacture.

Am I wrong?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Rick

I would guess this begs the question: how many other sword hilts found in the Philippines show possible Arab influence ?

If the answer is few I would lean toward parallel development .

This is a Nimcha Hilt; I see great differences between this and the Zanzibar hilt .

Here's a link to the original discussion of this sayf; let's throw that into our cooking pot .
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...enetian+nimcha

Salaams, Having read your reference to the earlier forum debate on a similar subject.. I see that the Nimcha is more likely to be an Italian or Venetian weapon.(I lean toward the Venetian because of their deep involvement in slavery and thus ships). The sword at your picture may be rather unusual since it appears to have a blade attributed to English ... and its a long blade... and the hilt is altered apparently since the knuckleguard is re engineered. It may be more the sort of sword carried by Tobias Blose in my earlier letter.

Your reference is most helpful so we can dive deeper on this problem. My thought is the Moroccan and Zanzibar Nimcha are morphs of the Italian and that seatrade carried the style to Manila. The problem with that oversimplistic view is... Once into Manila, the sword could have been exported to Mexico and back to Spain and then sold on to its trading neighbor Morocco in a slightly altered format...It goes round and round but its a great discussion.

Can anyone photo line up a Morrocan Nimcha next to a Zanzibar Nimcha please?

Regards,

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Rick]

I'm getting dizzy !
Yes, I think my example has been quite well repaired at some point in time; the pommel seems to have been broken in the past and there is a replacement wedge that can be seen . Therefore the brass strap to help hold it all together .

A google image search is helpful; lots of nimcha/Zanzibar sayfs to be seen .

My best,

Rick