Sea cow used for Iban hilts

[asomotif]

Originally Posted by VVV

Isn't the Dugong ID center in Rotterdam known to be one of the best in Europe?

I visited the NMR (Natuurkundig Museum Rotterdam) yesterday and only found dolfins and other small whales on display.
They probably have a dugong skeleton in their collection, but the conservator Mr Moeliker is on holidays.

Anyway, these skeletons can be found on the WWWeb, and personally if I check the bones, I can not find any bone (yet) that would be suitable to carve a hilt in te shape of mandau hilts.
So if anyone has a serious suggestion which bone is suitable to carve a mandauhilt, I would be much obliged.

Best regards,
Willem

[tom hyle]

BTW, there has been quite a trade in arctic ivory (etc.) since at least the 18th and aparently somewhat world wide. I have an Indonesian statue of a rhinoceros made from what is clearly walrus tooth, for instance. So geography is no barrier to a material being used, or even popular, especially in seagoing cultures.
I find the sea/land division idea fascinating. Somehow seems to link to the tradition of not carrying kris across water?

[tom hyle]

BTW, I would be very careful taking any antique to any official person of any kind for identification or any other reason, especially curators or academics you don't personally know. To some of them we private collectors are all dirty looters, and there is a host of reasons they could decide to take your antique, or even charge you with criminal charges; not just CITEs but national treasure type laws, weapon laws, who knows....but then I'm autistic, so moving thru human culture is quite a dark and risky journey for me, and being turned down is clearly not the worst that can happen when asking for help.

[VANDOO]

THE UPPER END OF RIB BONES WHERE IT CONNECTS TO THE SPINE IS A LIKELY SHAPE FOR MANDAU HANDLES. THE RIB IS MORE ROUND THERE NOT FLAT AND THE END IS LARGER AND HAS A LARGE KNOB TO CONNECT TO THE SPINE. AS THERE ARE QUITE A LOT OF RIBS IN EACH SKELETON YOU WOULD HAVE SEVERAL SIZES AND SHAPES TO WORK WITH AS WELL AS A GOOD SUPPLY OF MATERIAL IN A SHAPE READY TO BE WORKED MORE EASILY. SORT OF LIKE THE FORK IN AN ANTLER.

[Mytribalworld]

Originally Posted by VANDOO

THE UPPER END OF RIB BONES WHERE IT CONNECTS TO THE SPINE IS A LIKELY SHAPE FOR MANDAU HANDLES. THE RIB IS MORE ROUND THERE NOT FLAT AND THE END IS LARGER AND HAS A LARGE KNOB TO CONNECT TO THE SPINE. AS THERE ARE QUITE A LOT OF RIBS IN EACH SKELETON YOU WOULD HAVE SEVERAL SIZES AND SHAPES TO WORK WITH AS WELL AS A GOOD SUPPLY OF MATERIAL IN A SHAPE READY TO BE WORKED MORE EASILY. SORT OF LIKE THE FORK IN AN ANTLER.

Did you ever have handled the bones or ribs from a sea cow or seen from very close ?

The bones are looking to me as very spongeous ( more than the ribs) , so don't know if that material should be usefull. In Japan they seem only to make carvings from the ribs. There are enough ribs for sale online but I never see the bones......

see also that the structure ( rib bone)has some enclosements what you can see the best in the first pic.






There's also another thing and that's the reputation of the Dugong. It seems that in the Philippines people believe they are bringing bad luck,while in parts of Indonesia they are considered reincarnations of women.

[VVV]

Arjan,

The German blade smith also confirmed that he uses the ribs for his hilts (see above) so I assume those, and the more expensive tusks, are the parts to use for hilts.
On the wikipedia page you quoted it also says that the tusks are used for sword handles in the Gulf states.
All over the archipelago you will find keris hilts made from dugong, gading laut, but I am not sure if it's only the tusks or some other parts [ribs] are use for this too? So maybe "in parts of Indonesia they [Dugong] are considered reincarnations of women" isn't such a bad thing anyway?
The full wikipedia quote for Philippines is: "In the Philippines dugongs are thought to bring bad luck, and parts of them are used to ward against evil spirits." This also seems useful for a sword or knife hilt...

Michael

PS If you do a search for "dugong" on this forum you will see several reference pictures of dugong hilts.
Here is an interesting dugong related thread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=dugong

[tom hyle]

hmmm pics are good thanks. None of them show a hooked structure suitable to carve these hilts from, where there is clearly dense surface bone around the pith on all sides (ie including the butt side) of the hook.

[T. Koch]

Hi Vikingsword,

My name is Thor and I am a new member here. I hope you will all forgive me for practicing a bit of necromancy on this old thread, but I thought I'd try contributing with something to the forums for my first post here. I must also confess to having been lurking here for more than a year now and in that time I have been truly humbled by the level of knowledge on here. I've learned so much already and It is indeed an honor being in the company of you gentlemen!

I am a bachelor in biology, now undertaking my masters degree in human parasitology. To put food on the table meanwhile, I work for our Environmental Ministry here as part of the CITES Management Authority team where I am now on my 5th year. One of my many tasks at work , is looking at peoples' antiques in order to asses whether the materials used warrants the need for a CITES-permit/-certificate, i.e. if it's from a species contained within the CITES Appendices.

Basically I look at a lot of horn, bones, ivory etc. from different source species and this is where I think I might be of value to this, at this point albeit elderly, discussion.

Considering sea cows (order Sirenia) there are two extant families: Manatees, (Trichechidae) and the dugongs (Dungongidae), the latter consisting of only one extant species: The dugong, Dugong dugon. Now, the manatee species are confined to Afrcia and the New World, so they are conveniently excluded from the discussion at hand. The extant dugong however is dispersed over South East Asia, and is as such a likely candidate for source material.

One feature of the skeleton of the species in the family Dugongidae is the increased density, known as pachyostosis, of the rib bones. The weight of which the animal uses while swimming to keep on 'right keel', so to speak. It is exactly the density of this bone which makes it suitable for manufacture into tools and other items. Personally, the only Dugongid I've seen processed like this is the now extinct Steller's Sea Cow (Hydrodamalis gigas), the distribution of which was far more Northern than the extant dugong. As already mentioned, this is also the species, of which the ribs are utilized today by modern knife makers. The inuit tools I have personally seen from Steller's Sea Cow, had all been manufactured by Russian Inuit peoples, which have had a tradition for utilizing this species as part of their sustenance.

Now whether or not the Dayak likewise has/had a tradition for utilizing the extant dugong, local to Borneo, is beyond my area of expertise. Here I think it might be better consulting an anthropologist with a specialty in these people. On a further note, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if one of our members here, would be able to answer that: What do/did the Dayak catch and eat?

A last thing I would like to get around when on the topic of Sirenids, is that of alleged 'sea cow ivory'. We know from G.W. Steller's own notes that the Steller's Sea Cow didn't have any teeth, so that again leaves our extant dugong. Personally I have never seen, in photo or real life, any dugong ivory. Or let me rather put it this way: I have never seen any ivory which could not reasonably be explained as stemming from a different species of mammal.
Furthermore I have my doubts if there is any real ivory to be used on a dugong at all. While the dugong do not grow any canine teeth, the males do have two 'tusk-like' incisors, however these are fairly small, certainly compaired to tusks of other classic ivory-species, but also compaired to the objects they are supposedly carved into, i.e. sword and dagger handles.
To clarify, it is not that I believe that dugong 'tusks' was never a source of ivory, it is just that I have never seen anything to convince me otherwise. In the face of new evidence I am certainly anticipating a change of my position.

I submit to you here a picture of the skull from a Dugong dugon: http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.ed....jpg/view.html

Here one of a dugong skull in relation to a human male: http://www.customs.gov.au/site/content8949.asp


This concludes my introduction on these forums. I hope you found the above interesting – if you indeed made it all the way here to the end – and I apologize in advance for any linguistical or grammatical errors on the way. English is not my native language.

I am looking much forward to my time here with you gentlemen, thank you!



All the best, - Thor Koch

[VANDOO]

WELCOME TO THE FORUM WE OFTEN DIG UP THE BONES OF OLD POSTS HERE.
IT IS GOOD TO FIND SOMEONE WHO HAS ACTUALLY WORKED WITH THESE SKULLS. I HAVE SEEN THE BONES A FEW TIMES BUT DID NOT DO ANYTHING WITH THEM, LUCKY FOR ME. I HAVE SEEN THE TUSKS USED FOR CIGARETTE HOLDERS SO THAT SHOULD GIVE AN IDEA OF SIZE. YOUR PICTURES GIVE A GOOD IDEA OF SIZE I HAVE TAKEN THE LIBERTY OF INCLUDING YOUR PICTURES HERE AS OFTEN PICTURES VANISH IF NOT PROPERLY POSTED HERE AS SERVERS CHANGE OR VANISH AND INFORMATIO0N IS THUS LOST.
I HATED TO SEE GOOD SPECIMINS OF RARE MATERIAL SUCH AS SKULLS AND SUCH LAY IN A TRASH HEAP IN THE SWAMP BUT AM GLAD I DID NOT TRY TO SAVE THEM AS IN THE ONE LINK WHERE THE WOMAN LIKELY WENT TO JAIL AND WAS HEAVELY FINED EVEN IF SHE DID NOT KNOW WHAT THE SKULL WAS. THERE BUT FOR CAUTION GO I.
I FOUND THAT IT WAS EVEN AGINST THE LAW FOR THE OWNERS OF ANIMAL ATTRACTIONS IN AUSTRALIA TO KEEP SKULLS OR BONES OF THEIR ANIMALS OR TO PICK UP ROAD KILL TO FEED TO THEIR ANIMALS WITHOUT PERMITS. FOUND THIS OUT BY ASKING IF HE HAD ANY OLD TAZMANIAN DEVIL SKULLS AROUND I COULD LOOK AT. DID GET TO HOLD A LIVE ONE THEY SURE MAKE SOME SCARY NOISE AND SHOW SOME TEETH , MUCH SAFER LOOKING AT A SKULL.